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Author Topic:   Should Canada and the U.S. tolerate an intolerant Islam?
Greatest I am
Member
Posts: 1483
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 61 of 127 (772933)
11-20-2015 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by DrJones*
11-20-2015 3:38 PM



This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by DrJones*, posted 11-20-2015 3:38 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by DrJones*, posted 11-20-2015 4:12 PM Greatest I am has taken no action

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 1339 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 62 of 127 (772934)
11-20-2015 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Greatest I am
11-20-2015 3:33 PM


It has failed in Europe so I don't know where you get that idea.

I don't see evidence that it has failed, sorry.

Your heart is bleeding for the runners while ignoring that they are the same as those making them run

What a disgusting lie. One that undermines your own argument. One that anybody who has been keeping an eye on the emerging Syria crisis for years rather than months can see is transparently stupid and/or evil.

You are not learning from experience.

You aren't persuading me that you are doing better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCOLcMqdpls

Yes, some people are pissed off. So?

Canada and the U.S. has already seen Islam trying to change our laws to Sharia by previous and likely better immigrants who came by choice.

No it hasn't, and there is nothing wrong with that even if it were true.

Especially as we see the growing carnage overseas.

If you are talking about the terrorist attacks - that is not the carnage you should be concerned with.

The refugees dying in their thousands is more carnage than terrorists have managed to inflict on us in decades of earnest attempts.

Even as we speak, Canadians and Americans are lashing out at Canadian and American Muslims and more immigrants who are basically forced on us will get even more Canadians and Americans incensed.

If they break the law, those Canadians and Americans should be punished for their actions. We can't blame the victims of this lashing out, obviously!

Also, they are not being forced. They have already agreed to it. That's democracy.

At least if the runners grow some balls because they are forced to by closed borders, the long term might be best served.

As I keep repeating - we already tried that. The situation got worse for everyone in the short term, and looked to be growing in intensity - meaning the long term was also looking bad.

Nice try, but you are not learning from experience.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Greatest I am, posted 11-20-2015 3:33 PM Greatest I am has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Jon, posted 11-23-2015 9:38 PM Modulous has replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2209
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 63 of 127 (772935)
11-20-2015 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Greatest I am
11-20-2015 4:01 PM


so you don't have evidence that the refugees are the same as the people that htey're fleeing from?

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
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Modulous
Member (Idle past 1339 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 64 of 127 (772936)
11-20-2015 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Greatest I am
11-20-2015 3:40 PM


IOW. You would have happen to Canada as is happening overseas with host countries losing parcels of their countries to outsiders just as what happened to Molmo.

Malmö. A city that has improved its economic situation enormously over the last three decades. What would you like to say about it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Greatest I am, posted 11-20-2015 3:40 PM Greatest I am has taken no action

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20754
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 65 of 127 (772954)
11-21-2015 8:16 AM


I never ceased to be amazed that those here arguing from a position of least tolerance are so often the most Christian. They always give their excuses a higher precedence than their humanity. Given how tightly conservative Christianity aligns with the military, I'd say they're more like Islamic extremists than any other elements in this country.

--Percy


  
Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 66 of 127 (772955)
11-21-2015 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Modulous
11-20-2015 9:02 AM


You can move those goal posts all you want, Mod, it doesn't change reality or what's already been said.

Your initial claim was that the folks flocking to Europe "... do not want to support or live under such extreme Islamism".

To which I replied that many do, just not the exact version as being practiced.

To which you responded by changing general "extreme Islamism" to "extreme Islamism of ISIS " which, of course, agrees with what I said: the folks don't want to live under ISIS's extreme Islamism - but many do want to live under some version of extreme Islamism.

And it is none but the blind who fail to see that it is this general attitude of Middle Eastern Muslims that is behind so much of the violence in the region: it's a mash-up of extremist ideologies fighting for power with each one subjugating the others in its turn. ISIS rules today; some other may rule in the future.

Not sure what difference it makes, to be honest.

Well, that's the topic of this thread: should we be welcoming intolerant Islam into the West. There are two ways of welcoming Islam, conversion or immigration. We're talking about the latter.

Yes. You tried to find reasons to paint Muslims as intrinsically bad and you resisted any efforts to discuss the reasons why we're in the current climate and what we can do to have the best possible future.

Huh? I don't think Muslims are intrinsically bad. They are human beings who have the same potential to be good, honorable, and compassionate as all other human beings. Islam seems to do a good job suppressing these potentials; hence this thread and the several others on the same topic.

Is it that they don't want to live under extreme Islam, or just that they don't want to live under someone else's extreme Islam but instead under their own?

Does it matter?

Yes, because: this thread.

Tell me - would you rather they were educated in Syria by ISIS or in Sweden by the State school system? Which outcome is more likely to fulfil your prophecy of these kids growing up into a life of extemism?

Then let Sweden educate the kids. Their parents can stay in Syria.

That doesn't change the notion that we should be nice people who try and help civilians fleeing a warzone.

It does if we have good reason to believe those civilians are bringing the warzone with them - or even just the mentality that is largely responsible for it.

There are ways to help that don't involve inviting extremist nutjobs into our borders.

Edited by Jon, : No reason given.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Modulous, posted 11-20-2015 9:02 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Percy, posted 11-21-2015 9:09 AM Jon has replied
 Message 68 by Modulous, posted 11-21-2015 10:59 AM Jon has taken no action

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20754
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 67 of 127 (772957)
11-21-2015 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Jon
11-21-2015 8:30 AM


Jon writes:

To which you responded by changing general "extreme Islamism" to "extreme Islamism of ISIS " which, of course, agrees with what I said: the folks don't want to live under ISIS's extreme Islamism - but many do want to live under some version of extreme Islamism.

How many, and how do you know this?

Today's New York Times (ISIS Wives and Enforcers in Syria Recount Collaboration, Anguish and Escape) describes a pre-ISIS Syria with many progressive and westward-looking residents, e.g.:

quote:
All three belonged to a generation of Syrian women who were leading more independent lives than ever before. They mixed freely with young men, socializing and studying together in a religiously diverse city with relatively relaxed mores.

These people have no right to flee?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Jon, posted 11-21-2015 8:30 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Jon, posted 11-21-2015 1:39 PM Percy has replied

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 1339 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 68 of 127 (772965)
11-21-2015 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Jon
11-21-2015 8:30 AM


To which you responded by changing general "extreme Islamism" to "extreme Islamism of ISIS " which, of course, agrees with what I said: the folks don't want to live under ISIS's extreme Islamism - but many do want to live under some version of extreme Islamism.

Tell me - are these 'other versions' of Islamism the same extremism as ISIS' brand? It's just that they disagree on something? Can you show me?

And it is none but the blind who fail to see that it is this general attitude of Middle Eastern Muslims that is behind so much of the violence in the region: it's a mash-up of extremist ideologies fighting for power with each one subjugating the others in its turn. ISIS rules today; some other may rule in the future.

ISIS doesn't rule the middle east.
I've been personal friends with Iraqis, Jordanians and one Syrian. They have some interesting stories, they work hard and are loyal and generous friends each of them - their families are likewise. They are not unique. I want those kinds of people to stay alive. I want the frequency of these people within the population to increase in comparison with the militant nutters.

Am I being controversial in this?

Well, that's the topic of this thread: should we be welcoming intolerant Islam into the West. There are two ways of welcoming Islam, conversion or immigration. We're talking about the latter.

I know the topic. What difference does the fact that some of them might be 'perpetrators' themselves when we are deciding whether to let refugees drown?

Yes, because: this thread.

So because of this thread we should let them drown?

Then let Sweden educate the kids. Their parents can stay in Syria.

This kind of disgusting evil is why I am persuaded your position should not be accepted by any reasonably decent human.

It does if we have good reason to believe those civilians are bringing the warzone with them - or even just the mentality that is largely responsible for it.

Why?

There are ways to help that don't involve inviting extremist nutjobs into our borders.

I'm all ears. Speak quick though, while our hypothetical borders are closed to refugees there are people starving and drowning a few hundred miles offshore.


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 Message 66 by Jon, posted 11-21-2015 8:30 AM Jon has taken no action

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19521
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 69 of 127 (772967)
11-21-2015 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Jon
11-19-2015 1:42 PM


Re: Benefits of Islam
Jon writes:

Is it worth it to let Muslims into Western lands?
The only way to answer that is to do a cost-benefit analysis of the situation.


Was it worth it letting your ancestors in? Ask a Sioux.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Jon, posted 11-19-2015 1:42 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Jon, posted 11-21-2015 1:40 PM ringo has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 127 (772971)
11-21-2015 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Percy
11-21-2015 9:09 AM


These people have no right to flee?

I never said people haven't a right to flee.

What I have said is we have no obligation to receive such folks and should, given what we know of Muslims in the region be very cautious about importing extreme radicalism of the kind the West has already fought enough wars to get rid of in its own borders.

Today's New York Times (ISIS Wives and Enforcers in Syria Recount Collaboration, Anguish and Escape) describes a pre-ISIS Syria with many progressive and westward-looking residents, e.g.:

quote:
All three belonged to a generation of Syrian women who were leading more independent lives than ever before. They mixed freely with young men, socializing and studying together in a religiously diverse city with relatively relaxed mores.

That, of course, is just an anecdote. If we look at actual evidence (surveys of what people believe) we find things like this bit that Mod kindly pointed out long ago but has been doing a good job of forgetting:

quote:
Modulous in Message 131 in Evil Muslim conspiracy...:

quote:
About eight-in-ten Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan (82% each) endorse the stoning of people who commit adultery; 70% of Muslims in Jordan and 56% of Nigerian Muslims share this view. Muslims in Pakistan and Egypt are also the most supportive of whippings and cutting off of hands for crimes like theft and robbery; 82% in Pakistan and 77% in Egypt favor making this type of punishment the law in their countries, as do 65% of Muslims in Nigeria and 58% in Jordan.

When asked about the death penalty for those who leave the Muslim religion, at least three-quarters of Muslims in Jordan (86%), Egypt (84%) and Pakistan (76%) say they would favor making it the law; in Nigeria, 51% of Muslims favor and 46% oppose it. In contrast, Muslims in Lebanon, Turkey and Indonesia largely reject the notion that harsh punishments should be the law in their countries. About three-quarters of Turkish and Lebanese Muslims oppose the stoning of people who commit adultery (77% and 76%, respectively), as does a narrower majority (55%) of Muslims in Indonesia.


The bottom line is: if religiously sanctioned death and mutilation is an extremist position - its a very common one.


Middle-Eastern Muslims are by and large fundamentalists of a nature that makes our own Christian fundamentalists look like kittens.

It's not unreasonable to want to keep their crap out of the West.

Edited by Jon, : No reason given.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Percy, posted 11-21-2015 9:09 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Percy, posted 11-22-2015 8:38 AM Jon has taken no action
 Message 84 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 11-24-2015 11:01 AM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 127 (772972)
11-21-2015 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by ringo
11-21-2015 11:10 AM


Re: Benefits of Islam
Don't go there ringo; remember how stupid you looked last time trying to make that comparison?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by ringo, posted 11-21-2015 11:10 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Percy, posted 11-22-2015 8:40 AM Jon has seen this message
 Message 74 by ringo, posted 11-22-2015 1:07 PM Jon has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20754
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 72 of 127 (772989)
11-22-2015 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Jon
11-21-2015 1:39 PM


Jon writes:

These people have no right to flee?

I never said people haven't a right to flee.

What I have said is we have no obligation to receive such folks...

If no one will receive them, what good is the right to flee?

Simple humanity demands we receive people fleeing from groups like the Nazis, the Taliban, ISIS, Boko Haram, etc. We failed the Jews before and during World War II, we shouldn't repeat the mistake with fleeing Syrians, Iraqis, Nigerians, etc.

...and should, given what we know of Muslims in the region be very cautious about importing extreme radicalism...

Of course.

That, of course, is just an anecdote. If we look at actual evidence (surveys of what people believe) we find things like this bit that Mod kindly pointed out long ago but has been doing a good job of forgetting:

Mod's quote in his Message 131, taken from Stoning Adulterers at the Pew Research Center, was provided to support his argument of a wide variety of opinion among Muslims. For example, the 2nd sentence of the 2nd paragraph states, "In contrast, Muslims in Lebanon, Turkey and Indonesia largely reject the notion that harsh punishments should be the law in their countries."

It's not unreasonable to want to keep their crap out of the West.

I could agree with summarily rejecting refugee status for all mad bombers, but not all Muslims. It would be inhumane.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Jon, posted 11-21-2015 1:39 PM Jon has taken no action

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20754
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 73 of 127 (772990)
11-22-2015 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Jon
11-21-2015 1:40 PM


Re: Benefits of Islam
Don't go there ringo; remember how stupid you looked last time trying to make that comparison?

I'm only a participant in this thread, but could I suggest that maybe we could let the audience make their own decisions about who is stupid and who isn't. Our own personal opinions aren't the ones that count.

--Percy


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 Message 71 by Jon, posted 11-21-2015 1:40 PM Jon has seen this message

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19521
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 74 of 127 (773001)
11-22-2015 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Jon
11-21-2015 1:40 PM


Re: Benefits of Islam
Jon writes:

Don't go there ringo; remember how stupid you looked last time trying to make that comparison?


Remind me. My memory is long but selective.

Meanwhile, I stand by my statement: the immigrants who should have been kept out were us.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Jon, posted 11-21-2015 1:40 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Jon, posted 11-23-2015 10:06 PM ringo has replied

  
Bliyaal
Member (Idle past 1603 days)
Posts: 171
From: Quebec City, Qc, Canada
Joined: 02-17-2012


(1)
Message 75 of 127 (773017)
11-23-2015 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Greatest I am
11-20-2015 3:18 PM


the laws that they want to tear down

Prove it. You're judging them before they do anything.

Like I said, your morals stop at the borders and that's scary.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Greatest I am, posted 11-20-2015 3:18 PM Greatest I am has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Omnivorous, posted 11-23-2015 12:36 PM Bliyaal has replied

  
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