Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 59 (9025 total)
46 online now:
Phat (AdminPhat), Tangle (2 members, 44 visitors)
Newest Member: JustTheFacts
Post Volume: Total: 883,362 Year: 1,008/14,102 Month: 0/411 Week: 21/168 Day: 0/21 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Is the future inevitable?
Son Goku
Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 1164
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005


Message 92 of 109 (776329)
01-12-2016 6:48 AM


Quantum Events
I'm a bit late to the game on this one, but according to current physical theory, two universes that began identically would not stay identical due to quantum mechanical fluctuations.

Regarding hidden variables (by which I mean the possibility that Quantum events are actually determined by some unknown physics) several results restrict these theories. We know that they would have to be:
(a) non-local, communicate faster than light
(b) contextual, particles are aware of and contain information on the state of every other particle in the universe
(c) have essentially infinite complexity, each particle stores an infinite amount of data

Which I think is just as strange as quantum mechanics.


Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by 1.61803, posted 01-12-2016 10:38 AM Son Goku has responded

  
Son Goku
Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 1164
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005


(1)
Message 94 of 109 (776360)
01-12-2016 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by 1.61803
01-12-2016 10:38 AM


Re: Quantum Events
According to the current physics it is not deterministic.

As for finite or infinite, that is essentially unresolved. Our universe is so flat on average that current observations can't tell if it is infinite or not.

So (c) or (d)

Edited by Son Goku, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by 1.61803, posted 01-12-2016 10:38 AM 1.61803 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Tangle, posted 01-12-2016 2:24 PM Son Goku has responded

  
Son Goku
Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 1164
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005


Message 96 of 109 (776366)
01-12-2016 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Tangle
01-12-2016 2:24 PM


Re: Quantum Events
Can you though? All your actions could be (and evidence indicates are) completely determined by the initial conditions of the particles in your brain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Tangle, posted 01-12-2016 2:24 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Tangle, posted 01-12-2016 3:00 PM Son Goku has not yet responded
 Message 109 by Percy, posted 01-13-2016 7:22 AM Son Goku has not yet responded

  
Son Goku
Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 1164
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005


Message 102 of 109 (776380)
01-12-2016 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Tangle
01-12-2016 4:05 PM


Re: Quantum Events
Let us say an atom emits red light if it decays and green light if it remains undecayed. If this atom is next to a photosensitive chemical that contracts under green light and expands under red light, that would be an example of a classical system reacting differently depending on a quantum event.

In fact technically all nearby classical systems react differently to different outcomes of a quantum event. The quantum mechanical decays that power phosphorescence of certain minerals would result in completely different physical states of a cave wall the minerals were embedded in. Wouldn't this be the same as a human going to the right or left depending on the outcome.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Tangle, posted 01-12-2016 4:05 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Tangle, posted 01-12-2016 4:54 PM Son Goku has not yet responded

  
Son Goku
Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 1164
From: Ireland
Joined: 07-16-2005


(1)
Message 108 of 109 (776402)
01-12-2016 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Tangle
01-12-2016 4:50 PM


Re: Quantum Events
I know, I am agreeing with him (not that I could disagree with his physics) but NoNukes appears to be making distinctions between stuff at quantum level - which we all agree appears to be prperly random - and stuff at a macro level. I'm giving an example how a macro sized lump of stuff - me - could use quantum level randomness to create a non-deterministic outcome.

Ah, I see, you are talking about bootstrapping indeterminism up to the macro scale by making a classical object's next state depend on a quantum event. In which case, certainly yes macroscopic objects can be made indeterminate in this sense.

In fact such issues (how quantum indeterminism propagates up to the classical world) is the "real" point of Schrodinger's cat.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Tangle, posted 01-12-2016 4:50 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2021