Is the future inevitable?

Yeah, I was wondering that myself. I just jammed it in there 'cause it made it sound more formal I agree.What would a test for this sort of thing look like?That is, would we have to be able to identify a "predetermined outcome" and then see if anyone can get out of it?For example:A.
Red and blue button in a room.
Observers "predetermine" that the subject will press the red button.
Subject presses the red button.Confirmation?What about this:B.
Red and blue button in a room.
Observers "predetermine" that the subject will press the red button.
Observers inform subject that subject will be pressing the red button.
Subject presses the blue button (if possible???)If the subject always presses the red button in "B"... then I agree we have something.But does "A" actually show that anything is "predetermined?" Or does it just show that we can make accurate predictions?

I don't think there is anyway of proving we don't live in a determinate world. The closest I can get to it is to say that if randomness exists in it, then a world can not be determinate.But we wouldn't know any different because, well we wouldn't know any different.

I was trying to think of an experiment that would show that we did, indeed, live in a non-freewill world.How would such an experiment work?Even if we showed that the quantum world was determinate through math... how do we show that this *insists* that our brains/consciousness results in determined "no-freedom-to-choose" results?What if there's a way for a determinate quantum world to still result in our bains/consciousness being able to "overcome" that determined state to whatever we actually did "freely" choose? Can we show that "randomness" is a necessary requirement for such a thing? What if it isn't required? I don't feel like "randomness" is involved when I choose something.Is it possible to ever know such things?(Not arguing here, just asking open ended questions...)If we can't show that we don't live in a determinate world...
And then, even if we do live in one... we can't test if it actually removes freedom from the conscious choices we make or not...Where do we go from there?Sounds like a big 'ol box of not-much-use-to-anyone-for-anything to me

STEP AWAY FROM THE BONG.

Buggered if I know. I don't have a lot of time for word arguments - which is what these things always resolve into - and I don't have the maths necessary to take it elswhere.I do think that there's two crucial points though.1. We know that we have freedom of choice because we excercise it everyday. But we can't ever know if there's a ghost in the machine or a grand puppet master - but, you know, what are the odds? We know that life on earth evolved in a hap-hazard way and we're just part of that process - if there isn't randomness and choas in a few billions of years of evolution the words don't have meaning.2. If there is true randomness in our world then I say it can't be deterministic. We know in our own mind that we can make our own decisions but if we can't trust that we can play the Dice Man game and base our decisions on pure probability. I don't see how you can get round that without claiming that even probability can be pre-determined. That's too false a word game for me. At that point I just shrug really.

It is not a redefinition. Events are predictable with enough information. Today's weather was strictly determined by the physical state of the world yesterday.The universe is clearly deterministic at all sizes above the sub atomic when we look at individual events. Lottery ball machines do not employ the laws of physics in a random fashion. If they were truly random then the sequences would go more like 7, 18, 3, 47, kitten, 11, 6. Of course we don't see this because kittens are never randomly produced by lottery ball machines. In a truly random universe we could expect that they might be.Consider the alternative to a deterministic universe. What kind of free will would we posses if kittens did randomly appear in lottery ball machines? How could we possibly make choices if we had no idea how events would play out? Uncertainty is one thing but complete uncertainty is another.Perhaps I can square the circle. We live in a strictly deterministic universe where events quickly become unpredictable as the number of variables exceed the capability of even the greatest intellect. It is impossible for an intellect of sufficient capacity to exist in this universe. So perfectly determined events remain safe from prediction. Does that free us up again?

You really can't have it both ways, either something is random or it's determinate. If you make the words mean the same, there's nothing to discuss. I think you're mixing up random and arbitrary. Randomness is bounded - a dice has 6 sides not 6 sides and a kitten..

Everyone would agree with describing the results of a fair dice throw as random. How many would agree that the results are not strictly determined by the laws of physics? The 2 concepts are not mutually exclusive nor do they mean the same thing and this point is central to the discussion. The OP implies the false dichotomy that a clockwork universe cannot contain such a thing as free will. Arbitrary and random are synonymous and both are bounded by the paradigm of cause and effect. You won't get the result of a kitten without the cause of one being on the die. We know that the universe works this way all the way down as far as we can see.There is no question that we have agency and can make things happen of our own volition. There is not much doubt that our volition is caused by our physical state. The question is what is the nature of free will and where does it come from. Its a paradox and so there is lots to discuss.

Everyone would agree that dice rolls are random. But once they see where you are going with the physics, they should want to back out of that agreement. Dice rolls are close enough to random to make allow gambling on the outcome.On the other hand, nuclear decay timings apparently are truly random with probabilities that are governed by the laws of physics.

We all agree that. That's why a dice can't roll a kitten - randomness is bounded by its physical state. So we agree that we can dump the kitten then ;-) If we have true agency - ie we can do things without then being pre-determined - then we live in a non-determinate world. We all think we can, and if I doubt it I can roll my dice. If you don't accept that a dice roll is random I'll gamble with photons.. Q: Do physicists really believe in true randomness? | Ask a Mathematician / Ask a Physicist

Truly random meaning uncaused and random meaning unpredictable. Is that right? How can a truly random process be governed by anything?

Yes but the point was that random and determined can coexist. We perceive some events to be random, like a throw of the dice, and yet they are intricately determined by the events that preceded them. Basically you are marking the act of choosing as the beginning of a causal chain and not accounting for the causes that go into the making of the choice. There is an absolutely complete line of causes that have led up to the thoughts that you are having right now.Where do our choices come from? Why did I choose a kitten instead of a watermelon? It sure feels like I had the free choice to do so but really it just popped into my head. Even if it was the result of some randomly decaying particle it sure wasn't under my control. It feels like I consciously went looking for an example of a random item and came up with kitten but where did the thought to do so come from? As conscious entities we are much closer to being witnesses than we are to being participants.This does not destroy the self. Instead of removing personal responsibility this strongly makes the case that our actions do matter and can impact the way that things play out. Awareness brings responsibility.Our sense of freedom of action comes from the process of discovery. Observe — predict — act — observe — predict — act ... but even in a determined universe there is some element of slippage in the gears so to speak. Effects are limited and ripples fade. Not every flap of the butterfly's wing brings a hurricane and knowing that the sun will rise tomorrow doesn't take anything away from the joy of watching it happen.

A throw of the dice IS random. If you must take the extreme position that the result of my dice throw can be known before I throw it (because of perfect knowledge of all physical states) I'll use a photon instead of a dice - which is not affected by such conditions. But it does! It means I'm not able to make free choices - the decisions have already been made for me by historical cause and effect.

I think the existence of the quantum world guarantees that true randomness exists in the universe. The Casimir effect is one evidence of the random quantum world, where particles flit randomly in and out of existence, governed only by conservation laws regarding charge and spin and so forth.That quantum randomness can have a macro impact is obvious - it was the whole point of Schrdinger's cat, and its existence is responsible for a great deal of human activity, most obviously quantum research and papers, and a great many Internet pages. Quantum effects have practical applications, such as tunnel diodes, and so does quantum randomness, such as generating secure cryptographic keys.I do believe we live in a clockwork universe, but only down to the quantum level where elements of reality begin to become truly random. Quantum effects can affect dice, photons, anything.What does this mean for determinism? I think it means that what we think and do is largely but not completely deterministic, and that any sense of control we have is an illusion.--PercyEdited by Percy, : Grammar.