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Author | Topic: Is the future inevitable? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
Truly random meaning uncaused and random meaning unpredictable. Is that right? How can a truly random process be governed by anything? Events can be random individually, but in the aggregate lead to predictable behavior. The motion of individual molecules of a gas can be random, but the pressure exerted by the gas on the container might still obey gas laws. Radioactive decay may be completely random on the nuclear scale, but the decay of a gram of radium can still be predicted accurately using half-life equations. The probability of an event occurring can be mathematically predictable, but the timing of an event on an individual scale can be utterly unpredictable. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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Son Goku Inactive Member |
I'm a bit late to the game on this one, but according to current physical theory, two universes that began identically would not stay identical due to quantum mechanical fluctuations.
Regarding hidden variables (by which I mean the possibility that Quantum events are actually determined by some unknown physics) several results restrict these theories. We know that they would have to be:(a) non-local, communicate faster than light (b) contextual, particles are aware of and contain information on the state of every other particle in the universe (c) have essentially infinite complexity, each particle stores an infinite amount of data Which I think is just as strange as quantum mechanics.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1764 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Hi Son Goku,
So the universe/cosmos is in your opinion. a) deterministic and finite b) deterministic and infinite c) indeterministic and finite d) inderterministic and infinite e) a combination of a and c f) a combination of b and d"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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Son Goku Inactive Member
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According to the current physics it is not deterministic.
As for finite or infinite, that is essentially unresolved. Our universe is so flat on average that current observations can't tell if it is infinite or not. So (c) or (d) Edited by Son Goku, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9583 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.7 |
Son Goku writes: According to the current physics it is not deterministic. If you put a human consciousness into the equation, it can't be deterministic because I can screw with it.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Son Goku Inactive Member |
Can you though? All your actions could be (and evidence indicates are) completely determined by the initial conditions of the particles in your brain.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17919 Joined: Member Rating: 6.7 |
To add to Son Gokus response, a factor not accounted for in an equation could mess it up. But it's not possible to tell that human activity can mess it up in any other way. I've only seen one argument that purports to do so - and that is easily refuted.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9583 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.7 |
Son Goku writes: Can you though? All your actions could be (and evidence indicates are) completely determined by the initial conditions of the particles in your brain. Suppose I said I'll press this button if that photon goes through the polarizer to the left but I won't if it goes to the right?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17919 Joined: Member Rating: 6.7 |
quote: How would doing that be different from wiring up a detector to trigger the button if the photon goes to the left,but not on the right ? How does human consciousness make a difference ?
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Tangle Member Posts: 9583 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.7 |
PaulK writes: How would doing that be different from wiring up a detector to trigger the button if the photon goes to the left,but not on the right ? How does human consciousness make a difference ? Both acts require human consciousness. Doesn't matter whether the machine I built pulls the trigger based on my programming, or me directly. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17919 Joined: Member Rating: 6.7 |
That's not exactly a convincing argument for the idea that human consciousness goes against determinism
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Son Goku Inactive Member |
Let us say an atom emits red light if it decays and green light if it remains undecayed. If this atom is next to a photosensitive chemical that contracts under green light and expands under red light, that would be an example of a classical system reacting differently depending on a quantum event.
In fact technically all nearby classical systems react differently to different outcomes of a quantum event. The quantum mechanical decays that power phosphorescence of certain minerals would result in completely different physical states of a cave wall the minerals were embedded in. Wouldn't this be the same as a human going to the right or left depending on the outcome.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1764 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Tangle, he said not deterministic.
50 million "little grey cells" just shit the bed mon ami. ~ as inflected by Poirot"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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Tangle Member Posts: 9583 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 6.7 |
PaulK writes: That's not exactly a convincing argument for the idea that human consciousness goes against determinism It's traditional to show your workings :-) But in any case I only have to give a single instance of how determinism can be broken for determinism to be broken. Something is either deterministic or it ain't.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17919 Joined: Member Rating: 6.7 |
Yes, you only have to give a single example - so long as you show that it is a genuine example. When do you intend to attempt that part ?
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