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Author Topic:   Jesus and his sacrifice is Satan’s test of man’s morality.
GDR
Member
Posts: 4911
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 48 of 478 (775091)
12-27-2015 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Greatest I am
12-26-2015 1:12 PM


Re: Moderator Provided Information
GIA writes:

A good definition that does not really apply since Jesus supposedly knew that he would not really die.

I'll quote this but I'll also reply more generally. You are arguing against those like Faith that have long ago given up listening to what Jesus said and did in order to argue for an inerrant Bible.The problem is that this is a tradition that grew out of the reformation and essentially has done away with the worship of the Jesus of the Gospels in order to worship an inerrant Bible.

The Gospel of John tells about the Word or Wisdom of God which existed before all things and brought about all things. He goes on to say that this Word or Wisdom became flesh. In other words Jesus perfectly embodied the true nature and will of God. This is quite different than the idea of stating simply that Jesus is God, as obviously it begs the question of just who He was praying to. Praying to oneself doesn't make a lot of sense.

You stated that supposedly Jesus knew He wasn't going to die. I suggest that when He went into Jerusalem He did it knowing that He would die because He knew full well what the response of those in power would be with those who did what He was about to do. His message angered every power group in the country. His allies were the the weak and helpless, the prostitutes, the hated tax collectors etc. He prayed that it wouldn't be the Father's will for Him to have to go through with it.

However, through prayer and through His understanding of the Hebrew scriptures he believed that this is what He had to do and that somehow God would in the end use this sacrifice for the good of the world. The point is that He went to His death as an act of faith, not with any certainty of His resurrection. Any other belief denies His humanity and belittles the enormity of what He was doing.

His divinity comes through His embodiment of the Word of God and by extension the embodiment of the return of Yahweh to His people. It was the resurrection of Jesus by the Father that affirmed and vindicated the life and message of Jesus and it was God the Father, the Ancient if Days that enthroned Jesus.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Greatest I am, posted 12-26-2015 1:12 PM Greatest I am has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 12-28-2015 3:22 AM GDR has responded
 Message 51 by PaulK, posted 12-28-2015 5:00 AM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 102 by Greatest I am, posted 12-30-2015 11:20 AM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4911
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 55 of 478 (775104)
12-28-2015 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Faith
12-28-2015 3:22 AM


Re: Moderator Provided Information
Faith writes:

It's not right of you to misrepresent me, GDR. You know very well that I strenuously disagree with the slanderous statement that I worship the Bible. You, however, since you discard parts of the Bible you don't happen to like, discarding parts of God's own revelation to us -- all of it, every part of it His revelation to us, our only source of knowledge of the things of God-- that means you can only be following a Jesus of your own invention rather than the true Jesus revealed in God's word

I know you disagree Faith but the most obvious example is the fact that you can reconcile the belief that Jesus taught that we are to love our enemy, turn the other cheek and that our weapon against evil is love with the idea that Yahweh commanded genocide and public stoning for petty offences such as pick up firewood on the Sabbath. Those positions are irreconcilable.

You put your faith in the Bible ahead of your faith in Jesus.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 12-28-2015 3:22 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 12-28-2015 12:06 PM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4911
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


(2)
Message 56 of 478 (775109)
12-28-2015 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Tangle
12-28-2015 3:54 AM


Tangle writes:

I do find it odd that two devout believers in the same book can disagree so strongly about what it means. Given that this is supposed to be the most important story ever told and to be the actual word of God, how come it wasn't written in a way that Is impossible to disagree about? It supposedly had a purpose - to save us - and it was so important to God that He sent he son to give us this Word so how come it's such tosh that anyone can make anything they like up about it?
Of course neither GDR nor Faith are making up their own stories, they're simply regurgitating stories about the bible that have been refined for centuries by various apologists and have chosen their preferred interpretations. But both apparently have them confirmed by God himself through prayer.

An disinterested observer of all this would be asking himself how they can reconcile these things.

Humans like certainty. I agree that there is no certainty within Christianity or within any other faith. From a Christian perspective it is the view that God wants us to freely choose the very basic message that can be seen in my signature. If there was certainty then we would lose the ability to freely choose by knowing that we will be rewarded for behaving in a certain manner. It is about having hearts that love our neighbour as ourselves and through that choice care for the planet and all life on it.

I know this was discussed in another thread recently, but all religion is man made. Religions are theistic attempts to understand the nature of god(s) and what our response to that nature should be. In the majority of cases the response has been to figure out how to get this god to conform to our desires.

The message that we see espoused by Jesus is that we are to serve God by serving His creation. This is often not the case in the OT where it was usually about trying to follow a set of laws in order to get Yahweh to be with them in defeating their enemies and putting them in power over other nations.

It is my contention that with Faith's views that it is all about getting our belief system in line so that we are rewarded with eternal life with God. It is the carrot on the end of the stick approach with I contend is fundamentally opposite to the message of Jesus again. Fundamentalism is a modern version of the approach taken by the Pharisees of Jesus' day.

I understand the Bible to be the "word" of God with Jesus being the "Word" of God. The Bible is a library of books with no doubt hundreds of authors. It is a history of man's understanding of God slowly being refined over the centuries until it comes to a climax in Jesus where we see God's true nature being fully revealed and that is confirmed by God resurrecting Jesus.

I believe that God's nature and purposes are revealed in the Bible and that He speaks to our minds and hearts through the written word. It is a tool used by God to change people's hearts.

We all have a world view based on somet belief. None of us have certainty that the basis for our world view is accurate. We have people who spend their lives in service to others at their own expense and we have people who spend their lives serving themselves at other expense. If we had certainty that serving others was really about serving ourselves then then it is again all about us. Again, as per my signature, God wants us to humbly love kindness and justice. In the end it is all about the heart.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Tangle, posted 12-28-2015 3:54 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Faith, posted 12-28-2015 12:41 PM GDR has responded
 Message 62 by Tangle, posted 12-28-2015 2:04 PM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4911
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


(2)
Message 60 of 478 (775114)
12-28-2015 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Faith
12-28-2015 12:06 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Faith writes:

First, it is not right to characterize my beliefs according to your opinion without noting that I see it completely differently.

First off, the very first words I used were that "I know you disagree". Secondly of course I am expressing my opinion just as you express your opinion about what I believe.

Faith writes:

This is completely wrong. You misread the Bible. The OT also wants us to be kind to our fellow man. You simply refuse to accept that God Himself has the right to JUDGE SIN. He uses nations for that purpose sometimes, and He used His own nation for that purpose sometimes, but He also used foreign nations to punish His own nation. People who understand the Bible also believe that the Civil War was God's judgment on America for slavery, and many other examples could be suggested. What you call "genocide" is God's judgment of a whole nation for their collective sins, which had accumulated over hundreds of years. We are supposed to understand this as a revelation of judgment to come, and of Hell. Without these realities there would have been no reason for Jesus to die for us.

If you had any respect to God's word you wouldn't trivialize anything in it as you do. Picking up firewood on the Sabbath was a terrible violation of God's command that no work is to be done on the Sabbath. Picking up firewood on the Sabbath is an act of faithlessness toward God who promised to take care of the people through the Sabbath without their resorting to fleshly means. He also promised to preserve the manna through the Sabbath. Such an act of disbelief corrupts the entire meaning of the Sabbath, which is a picture of the rest believers look forward to through Christ. Not to punish this act of faithlessness would corrupt all the people's trust in God's commands.

You just continue to make my point Faith. You are able to reconcile a belief in a deity that would tell the people whose job it is to reflect His love to the world but that they are to go out and slaughter the men, women and children of another community. We can see today the damage being done with PTSD to those who we send out to participate in our various wars. Your god would send out the people he loves to participate in these slaughters and then come home, unmoved by this mass slaughter, and then lead lives of love and kindness to their fellow man.

You suggest that God was responsible for the civil war in your country. How about the suffering and death of those who opposed slavery all along. How about the Christian approach taken by Wiberforce in Britain who facilitated the end of slavery there without the slaughter of the US Civil War. Do you really think that God would lead those in Britain to end slavery without bloodshed but would use a particularly brutal civil war that turned brother against brother in the US to end it?

As far as judgement is concerned, here is what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 4. "5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God."

Paul understands it to be about the motive's of men's hearts. It isn't for us to judge. Christianity is not about worrying about who is in and who is out. It is about following Jesus and reflecting the love of His and our Father into God's good creation, and God confirmed that by resurrecting Jesus.

Faith writes:

That happens to be a lie. You understand nothing.

That's helpful. My opinion may be wrong but that doesn't make it a lie.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 12-28-2015 12:06 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4911
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 61 of 478 (775116)
12-28-2015 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Faith
12-28-2015 12:41 PM


Faith writes:

No, all religions are not man-made. Biblical religion is God-made.

Some. like yourself have decided that the Bible is inerrant and have built a religion around that. All religions are man made. As I said, all religions are built on understanding the true nature of a deity and what our response should be.

Faith writes:

Serving the creation is right, of course, but our service of God is to be primarily worshiping Him in spirit and in truth. He Himself is our "exceeding great reward" as He told Abraham.

But what does it mean to "worship" Him. Is worship making sure that we get to church on time every Sunday. Sure that's a good thing. But maybe it's more importantly about telling the young woman at the check-out counter that she has a pretty smile, or buying someone who is homeless a meal, or working to integrate a refugee family into the community, and then thanking God that we have been gifted in such a way that these acts of love are possible.

Faith writes:

What you call "fundamentalism" is nothing other than obeying God's word as He wrote it.

Then why don't you follow it. Do you ever shop on Sunday, or is it Saturday? Why don't you recommend the public execution for those who do? Why aren't you advocating that nuclear bombs or some other method of annihilation be used on Islamic nations?

Faith writes:

You with your works-righteousness have more in common with the Pharisees than fundamentalists do.

It isn't works righteousness. It is about the heart. Psalm 37 tells us that if we delight in the Lord He will give us the desires of our heart. I think that the psalmist got it exactly right. If we truly follow Jesus, (whether we know Him by name or not), our hearts will desire and find joy in the expressions of love that can be expressed in our lives multiple times a day. As Christians we should then always remember that we are only capable of that love because God loved us first and that we are to give thanks for it. Many people have been damaged due to abuse, genealogy or whatever, and find it difficult to understand love but deep down desire it even though their actions don't show it. Again, ultimately it is about the heart, or as Paul says, it is about the motives of our heart.

Faith writes:

You say the Bible was given to teach and change us but you obviously don't believe that since you only obey the parts that appeal to you.

In what we have that Jesus said in the Gospels we can see that He was very Jewish and constantly referred us back to the OT. At the same time in corrected the parts that were wrong. For example:
quote:
38 "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.

If I am picking out the parts that I agree with I guess I'm in good company.

If we want to understand Jesus we have to understand Him in His 1st century Jewish context. To understand that context we need the OT. To understand God's nature and His desires for us we need the words of Jesus as a lens to understand what is written in the OT. The epistles then are the first theologians working out just what it was that Jesus taught and to understand what God was doing in resurrecting Him.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Faith, posted 12-28-2015 12:41 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4911
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


(2)
Message 66 of 478 (775121)
12-28-2015 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Tangle
12-28-2015 2:04 PM


Tangle writes:

Forget certainty, there isn't even consistency. It's a hopeless mess where anything can be believed from the same words. It's obvious man-made bunkum that can can be seen directly from the text even before you get into the historicity of the thing.

First off it is a collection of 66 books with no doubt hundreds of authors involved. I think that there is consistency as it it a history of the Jewish understanding of God that we can see evolve from the tough vengeful god that is often depicted in the early part of the OT to the much more compassionate deity in Isaiah and the other later prophets until we get to the full revelation and embodiment of God's nature in the person of Jesus.

Tangle writes:

But I note that both you and Faith failed to pick up the point that you both believe through prayer - talking to your god - that you have the correct interpretation. He's lying to at least one of you isn't he?

Not really. I have no doubt that some of the things I believe are wrong. Yes, I pray but in the end I think that usually our prayers are answered by the heart knowledge that comes from God of what is the right thing that I am to do in my life. I suppose that God does give us understanding but that understanding is also quite obviously going to be impacted by our life experiences.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Tangle, posted 12-28-2015 2:04 PM Tangle has not yet responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4911
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 70 of 478 (775126)
12-28-2015 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Tangle
12-28-2015 2:53 PM


Tangle writes:

So in the space of half a dozen posts we have three different opinions from 3 different Christians.
And I'm supposed to accept that this is the word of god? He's got the worst marketing communications department that there's ever been if that's the case.

Word of god, pah!

And yet more sidestepping this prayer malarkey - you guys tell us that you talk to god so one imagines that he'd put you right if you were on the wrong track about what he meant by this 'word' stuff. And yet it seems he's content to let you believe what you like about it. Even though in at least one case, it seems likely it'll put you into hell.

It's back to the same thing again. Yes, it is ambiguous - we don't have certainty. With people who have actually put thought into it, there isn't likely to be two Christians anywhere that will agree on everything.

If we had certainty then we would lose our ability to freely choose free of self interest.

It also of course holds true about prayer. It is clear that the nature of God as we see it perfectly embodied in Jesus is far more concerned about our heart for all of His creation than He is about our theology.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Tangle, posted 12-28-2015 2:53 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Tangle, posted 12-28-2015 3:35 PM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4911
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 72 of 478 (775130)
12-28-2015 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Tangle
12-28-2015 3:35 PM


Tangle writes:

Doesn't all that sound like a massive invention and cop out to you? God sends his only son to the world and has him murdered to redeem our sins and show us the way into his kindom, but does it in such a way as to make it interpretable anywhichway? Then the believers pray to him and simply have what they already believe confirmed.

God did not have Him murdered. It was people who murdered Him. It was God who resurrected Him.

The Christian message is that ultimately there will be a re-creation of all things and that, for lack of a better term, the resurrected Jesus is the prototype of the life in a resurrected world. In Christian parlance Jesus is the new Adam for this re-created world.

As a theist it makes sense to me that this isn't all there is and frankly as far as I'm concerned is does all fit. I actually relate to this quote of CS Lewis.

quote:
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
Now I know that this doesn't resonate with you but it does for me.

Tangle writes:

Doesn't that smell just a liitle like it might just be people deluding other people and themselves?

There is the belief that a single cell and ultimately sentient moral life evolved without any intelligent or moral input from the endless chance combinations of mindless particles. That is without answering the question of why those particles existed in the first place.

Doesn't that smell just a little like it might just be people deluding other people and themselves?


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Tangle, posted 12-28-2015 3:35 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Tangle, posted 12-28-2015 6:47 PM GDR has responded
 Message 76 by PaulK, posted 12-29-2015 2:59 AM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4911
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 75 of 478 (775155)
12-29-2015 2:12 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Tangle
12-28-2015 6:47 PM


Tangle writes:

These aren't alternatives GDR, you're just trying to create false choices. Also, as you know, none of these things that you incorrectly call 'beliefs' help you explain Christian beliefs.

The only point I was making, (which had nothing to do with explaining Christian beliefs), is that atheistic beliefs require far more faith than do Christian beliefs IMHO.

Tangle writes:

Now that IS interesting. If god didn't know he was going to be murdered what kind of god was he and if he hadn't been murdered what kind of prophet would his son have been?

See my post #37 in this thread. I have already covered that.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Tangle, posted 12-28-2015 6:47 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Tangle, posted 12-29-2015 3:41 AM GDR has responded
 Message 84 by Tangle, posted 12-29-2015 1:05 PM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4911
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 78 of 478 (775175)
12-29-2015 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by PaulK
12-29-2015 2:59 AM


PaulK writes:

I don't know anyone who believes that. Most sensible and informed people believe that evolution is responsible. And if you don't know that by no, what have you been doing here all these years ?

I have no problem believing in evolution. I do have a problem believing in an evolutionary process that is a result of endless mindless processes from mindless particles.

What then do atheists believe about abiogenesis or the ultimate basis for the evolutionary process?


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by PaulK, posted 12-29-2015 2:59 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-29-2015 12:39 PM GDR has responded
 Message 83 by PaulK, posted 12-29-2015 12:53 PM GDR has responded
 Message 86 by kbertsche, posted 12-29-2015 5:45 PM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4911
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 79 of 478 (775176)
12-29-2015 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Tangle
12-29-2015 3:41 AM


Tangle writes:

Atheists don't necessarily 'believe' anything about anything, they just don't believe in god. That's it, they don't have to have any alternative thing in place of it. It's obviously an impossible thing for believers to get their heads round. I can only assume that they and you can't imagine that it's possible not to go through life thinking and worrying about such things.

Why discuss it then. You have no position to defend and yet you denounce as ridiculous the views of those who have come to a conclusion about the why's of our existence. Actually your view sounds a great deal more agnostic to me than atheistic. Presumably to be an atheistic one has to believe in our existence being the result of purely materialistic origins.

Tangle writes:

That's a post by Faith. When you find it, I really hope it doesn't include CS bloody Lewis's imaginings. You quote him like he has some special information about god and his thoughts. He doesn't. What he does have is a good mind for fantasy writing.

Sorry. Post 48 in this thread


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Tangle, posted 12-29-2015 3:41 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Tangle, posted 12-29-2015 12:47 PM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4911
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 81 of 478 (775178)
12-29-2015 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Tanypteryx
12-29-2015 12:39 PM


Tanypteryx writes:

I have to ask, what do you consider to be "mindful" processes or "mindful" particles? Are hurricanes god exhaling really hard or what?

Do you think chemical reactions are either mindless or mindful?

Certainly there are natural processes that result in hurricanes or even evolution. The question is the origin of the natural processes. Look at evolution. Here is a process the required incredibly complex cells initially. and that then wound up in a process where life reproduces itself and with the myriad of life forms we see today including creatures with sentience and an understanding of morality.

I contend that all of this is far more likely to resulted from a pre-existing intelligence as opposed to the chance combination of mindless particles. That again is without even asking why those particles existed in the first place.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-29-2015 12:39 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-29-2015 1:32 PM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4911
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 87 of 478 (775197)
12-29-2015 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by kbertsche
12-29-2015 5:45 PM


kbertsche writes:

On this topic, I recommend the lecture "Beyond the 'Evolution' vs. 'Creation' Debate" by Denis Lamoureux. Denis argues that the big divide between theists and atheists is not creation vs evolution, but teleology vs dysteleology. (You can find more of Denis' lectures here.)

I listened to that and I also own and have read his book "I Love Jesus and I Accept Evolution". The only question that i would have with him is on his Biblical view. What does he mean when he calls the Bible inspired by God. I have probably differ with him somewhat on that as yes I believe that God does communicate wisdom to people, but in the case of the Bible, I would agree that God inspired writers to write but which in my view does not mean that they always got it correct.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by kbertsche, posted 12-29-2015 5:45 PM kbertsche has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by kbertsche, posted 12-29-2015 11:07 PM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4911
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 88 of 478 (775198)
12-29-2015 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Tangle
12-29-2015 12:47 PM


Tangle writes:

I'm trying to explain to you that it's not a defence of your beliefs to point out (incorrectly) my 'belief' in something else. I'm also trying to get you to understand that people can and do have no beliefs and manage to have fulfilling, useful and moral lives without giving a thought to all this stuff.

I fully agree with all of that, but if someone calls them self an atheist then i would have to assume that he/she has given a thought to all this stuff.

Tangle writes:

I'm not a typical atheist, I AM interested in discussing belief and alternative ideas of origins - do you imagine that 70% of Swedes are on forums arguing about it? The vast majority of atheists just don't care about this stuff, they just don't believe that there's a god. End. They get on with their lives without ever really considering it. In other words it's just normal.

Again, if they call themselves atheistic then they must have considered it and then gotten on with their lives.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Tangle, posted 12-29-2015 12:47 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Tangle, posted 12-30-2015 3:14 AM GDR has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4911
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 89 of 478 (775199)
12-29-2015 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by PaulK
12-29-2015 12:53 PM


PaulK writes:

Your problem is that many atheists accept evolution which is a process which provides guidance and goes well beyond the capabilities of random combinations. And, f course, evolution is a mindless process which naturally follows from the existence of imperfect self-replicators.

OK so evolution occurs without any intervention. That still does not answer the question of why it exists or whether it is the result of a pre-existing intelligence or not.

PaulK writes:

As I pointed out above evolution is an inevitable consequence of the existence of imperfect self-replicators. And only creationists believe that conscious moral beings were produced by anything that could be called abiogenesis. How abiogenesis really occurred on Earth is up for grabs (if it happened on Earth, which is only the more likely possibility) but there does not seem to be any reason why self-replicating chemicals could not form and acquire elaborations through evolutionary processes. Where you put abiogenesis in that process depends on where you draw the line between life and non-life, but that is a fine point of no real importance here.

As you say the answer is up for grabs. As a theist I believe that it was caused by a pre-existing intelligence I and others call God. An agnostic presumably would claim that we can't know so why bother worrying about it and an atheist would presumably say that it is all the result of mindless natural processes.

I have been simply attempting to defend my position. The only defence that I have seen from atheists is that is what they believe. We both have looked at the evidence and have come to very different conclusions.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by PaulK, posted 12-29-2015 12:53 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by PaulK, posted 12-30-2015 2:58 AM GDR has responded

    
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