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Author Topic:   Jesus and his sacrifice is Satan’s test of man’s morality.
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1198 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 91 of 478 (775201)
12-29-2015 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by GDR
12-29-2015 8:51 PM


GDR writes:

If He had simply been crucified and that was the end of the story we would know nothing of Him today.

Quite aside from the context of this thread's debate, I just want to point out that this is hogwash.

Many people--spiritual teachers, philosophers, kings, slaves, poets, generals, artists, dramatists, religion founders, even fictional characters, courtesans and gods neither of us believe in--have managed to be remembered and have influence without the extra pizzazz of resurrection.

So curb your enthusiasm.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by GDR, posted 12-29-2015 8:51 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by GDR, posted 12-29-2015 9:19 PM Omnivorous has responded

    
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1198 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(1)
Message 109 of 478 (775264)
12-30-2015 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by GDR
12-29-2015 9:19 PM


GDR writes:

Jesus contended that he was the Jewish messiah. As I understand it we know of about 15 other messianic movements of that era and with some of them having accomplished significant, although brief, military victories. Who, other than the odd historian knows about them today, let alone worship them?

We don't have anything he wrote, his followers were at the bottom of the social order in a small oppressed nation and had no influence in his life time outside of the Jewish world which had rejected Him.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, GDR. You eloquently describe Jesus' obscurity.

As you know, I don't believe Jesus was resurrected. It is difficult to experience frank incredulity and maintain a respectful tone, and I don't always succeed. I hope to do better.

Many of the folks I alluded to--"spiritual teachers, philosophers, kings, slaves, poets, generals, artists, dramatists"--are remembered, simply, because of their remarkable lives and achievements. Most of them claimed no miracles.

Jesus' personal history prior to crucifixion was already replete with signs and wonders, prophecies and miracles. He healed the sick and raised the dead; he cast out demons and fed a multitude with a few basketsful. He did these things much more publicly than he rose. He gathered a following passionate enough to alarm both the Jewish and the Roman authorities.

Leaders of the 15 other messianic movements you refer to may have matched Jesus' way with the authorities, but I assume you don't think they performed the other supernatural acts I listed for Jesus. I suppose, if you believe they did, I can see why you think Jesus needed resurrection to close the deal with his disciples. But I don't think you believe that. Further, I'm sure you agree with me that the founders of other world religions did not rise from the dead, let alone perform many other miracles--yet they have millions of followers after a very long time indeed.

I initially responded to your post on this not because I reject your beliefs about Jesus' resurrection, but because I cannot believe that anyone capable of the pre-crucifixion miracles, performed before many witnesses, would be forgotten unless he rose from the dead to a few.

I don't see why your faith or theology would require you to believe in the necessity of resurrection to the survival of the Christian religion. It seems a superfluous limitation on both the power of God and the potency of Jesus' life and teaching.

Edited by Omnivorous, : No reason given.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by GDR, posted 12-29-2015 9:19 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by GDR, posted 12-31-2015 2:35 AM Omnivorous has responded

    
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1198 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(2)
Message 126 of 478 (775342)
12-31-2015 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by GDR
12-31-2015 2:35 AM


GDR writes:

I think that you make a good well thought out point but I contend that the Gospel accounts don't support your position.

Yet the founding of other faiths and their persistence over time do support it.

Perhaps, if Yahweh hardened Pharoah's heart, he also made Jesus' Jewish disciples remarkably fickle, despite the miracles they witnessed.

If I shared your faith in the Gospels, no doubt I would agree with your position.

Have a great New Year, GDR. It's always a pleasure to disagree at length with a calm Christian.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by GDR, posted 12-31-2015 2:35 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by GDR, posted 01-01-2016 5:00 PM Omnivorous has not yet responded

    
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1198 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(4)
Message 131 of 478 (775363)
12-31-2015 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Aussie
12-31-2015 2:54 PM


Re: misrepresentation
It's good to be reminded of my childhood moral outrage at the slaughter of the innocents in the Bible. Those stories made me question my church, and the inadequate answers made me leave. My long ago revulsion still makes me question the moral sanity of Biblical Inerrantists.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Aussie, posted 12-31-2015 2:54 PM Aussie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Faith, posted 01-01-2016 2:16 PM Omnivorous has not yet responded
 Message 150 by GDR, posted 01-01-2016 5:11 PM Omnivorous has not yet responded
 Message 194 by Aussie, posted 01-04-2016 8:45 AM Omnivorous has not yet responded

    
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1198 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 305 of 478 (776034)
01-07-2016 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by NoNukes
01-07-2016 6:53 PM


Re: YYes Re: misrepresentation
NoNukes writes:

Most Christians have no problem identifying that things like...having bears maul children for making fun of beards are difficult and problematic.

My intuitive favorite explanation suggests it was a teaching tale, like Aesop's Fables, and so popular the Editor put it in. Scary tales for kids...

I've seen many possible explanations for why such things happened, but very few of them as sick as what I read here.

Every doctrine of inerrancy leads to the same chamber of horrors no matter where you start, Kansas evangelical or Afghan Taliban. Those were the days, justice was hard and clean; us and them were clear, there was blood without quibble. Now all humanity is degenerate drek, especially Afghanistan from Kansas, and vice versa.

And once you accept those grim prospects, who wouldn't want the world to end? Isn't that the hardest and cleanest justice of all? So the human arc is to be from bloody horror to fervent Apocalypse...

Personally, I'd like to think the world will get better, like things already have for communities of people who refuse to take bloody tribal myths as gospel.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.
-Terence


This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by NoNukes, posted 01-07-2016 6:53 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by Faith, posted 01-08-2016 12:27 PM Omnivorous has not yet responded

    
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