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Author Topic:   Jesus and his sacrifice is Satan’s test of man’s morality.
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 133 of 478 (775371)
01-01-2016 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Phat
12-30-2015 3:04 PM


Re: Foreknown and Determined
God may well have written that script as well and Lucifer had no choice in the matter to become the evil one---
nor do we have any choice...it is all pre-determined. In which case I have no reason to try and convert atheists nor do any churches have any need to exist.
Its Gods play.
So now we have a fully predetermined universe.
Assuming we have no choice whether to serve (or acknowledge God) or not, does it matter to you personally what you do?
It matters insofar if the Scriptures are cogent, coherent, and free from internal inconsistencies. If you set out to show that we have freewill, then how do you reconcile instances where there is clearly no freewill offered to some people?
Did the Pharaoh have freewill? If god hardened his heart, then God is directly responsible for Pharaoh's condition. If God controlled him like a puppet, then he did not have freewill.
And then of course there is the illusion of freewill when there is none to speak of, for God's own omniscience makes it an impossibility.
Let's use a card game as an analogy. If you know the outcome of a "choice" (choice used very loosely here) then there really is no choice at all, only the illusion of it to those not in on the scam. The other players think they have a choice, but the deck is loaded by the dealer in a predetermined way. So it is with god in the scriptures.
If Lucifer only exists to be the bad guy, then did he have a choice or is he simply playing the role he was assigned? Obviously the latter.
Therefore there cannot be freewill where there is an omniscient God.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 12-30-2015 3:04 PM Phat has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 134 of 478 (775372)
01-01-2016 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by GDR
12-30-2015 6:51 PM


Can't have it both ways
That is not consistent with my belief. I believe that God has established a world where the future is unknown to both God and us.
Then your "belief" is at odds with your own religion. Either God knows all things or he doesn't. And if he doesn't know all things, as you are suggesting here, then the Scriptures must necessarily be in error, in which case you would have to reasonably call in to question its entirety.
God's omniscience:
"For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything." -- John 3:20
"Do you know how God lays his command upon them and causes the lightning of his cloud to shine? Do you know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge" -- Job 37:15-16
So which is it; because you can't have it both ways?

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by GDR, posted 12-30-2015 6:51 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by GDR, posted 01-01-2016 5:31 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 173 of 478 (775476)
01-02-2016 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by GDR
01-01-2016 5:31 PM


Re: Can't have it both ways
I have not said that I don't believe that God knows everything, whatever everything even means in this case.
I'm saying that I believe that in general the future is unknowable even to God. It is my contention that He has created a world where the future is open.
If that's the case then how do you reconcile prophecies? If God doesn't know the future because it's open, then how is it that there are also prophecies all throughout the bible that would have to mean that the future is known to God?

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by GDR, posted 01-01-2016 5:31 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Bob Bobber, posted 01-02-2016 3:44 AM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 180 by GDR, posted 01-03-2016 2:26 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 175 of 478 (775479)
01-02-2016 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Bob Bobber
01-02-2016 3:44 AM


Re: Can't have it both ways
Just a thought, Yahweh was not identified with nature, Yahweh transcended nature; and Yahweh wasn’t known through nature or natural phenomena. Yahweh was known through history, events and a particular relationship with a man, which Yahweh formed from the dust of the earth.
How does that vague mysticism answer my question?

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Bob Bobber, posted 01-02-2016 3:44 AM Bob Bobber has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Bob Bobber, posted 01-02-2016 4:02 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 181 of 478 (775593)
01-03-2016 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by GDR
01-03-2016 2:26 AM


Re: Can't have it both ways
Jesus often foretold the destruction of Jerusalem but that would be on the basis of He could see that would be the retribution by the Romans for the rebellion was brewing.
So, to be clear, you think that Jesus was guesstimating that destruction of the Temple would occur given the Roman occupation?
If God knows all that there is to know then, even though the future is unknowable, He can predict the future with a fair degree of accuracy.
So then conceivably this leaves the door open to the possibility that God gets some things wrong?

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by GDR, posted 01-03-2016 2:26 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Phat, posted 01-03-2016 7:25 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 187 by GDR, posted 01-03-2016 6:08 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 269 of 478 (775943)
01-07-2016 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by Faith
01-05-2016 5:11 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Christianity has gone through a lot of ups and downs. It's incontestable that it's beginnings were very meek, however, once Constantine came to power was the beginning of Christianity turning rather ugly (Dark Ages, Inquisition, The Crusades, etc). One those days came to a close, there have been many sects within Christianity that have tried to embody the original spirit of Jesus' overall ethos.
In today's time, at least in America, there has been a coalescing of Americana militarism and Christianity that is blurring the lines. This brand of Christianity is a lot like the Hasmoneans which found that warring patriotism was God's highest calling. This
flies in the face of Jesus' teachings.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Faith, posted 01-05-2016 5:11 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Faith, posted 01-07-2016 7:02 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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