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Author Topic:   Jesus and his sacrifice is Satan’s test of man’s morality.
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2276
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 80 of 478 (775177)
12-29-2015 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by GDR
12-29-2015 12:17 PM


I do have a problem believing in an evolutionary process that is a result of endless mindless processes from mindless particles.

I have to ask, what do you consider to be "mindful" processes or "mindful" particles? Are hurricanes god exhaling really hard or what?

Do you think chemical reactions are either mindless or mindful?


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by GDR, posted 12-29-2015 12:17 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by GDR, posted 12-29-2015 12:47 PM Tanypteryx has responded

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2276
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 85 of 478 (775182)
12-29-2015 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by GDR
12-29-2015 12:47 PM


The question is the origin of the natural processes. Look at evolution. Here is a process the required incredibly complex cells initially

Well, the hypotheses I am familiar with all have very simple chemistry initially that slowly gets more and more complex.

and that then wound up in a process where life reproduces itself

Well, that is kind of what you would expect; self-replicating molecules leading to reproduction in living organisms.

with the myriad of life forms we see today including creatures with sentience and an understanding of morality.

Yes, life has done well. There are a lot of species and today one is self-aware and thinks. As far as understanding morality, there seems to be little agreement what it is.

I contend that all of this is far more likely to resulted from a pre-existing intelligence as opposed to the chance combination of mindless particles.

That sounds like an easy answer, but it isn't good enough. There are no details of how or why. There is no evidence, no signature, no way to even study it.

What is the deal with always referring to "mindless particles?" Do you have any example of particles with minds? Or any reason to think particles could have minds?

That again is without even asking why those particles existed in the first place.

OK, are you asking why particles exist or not?

I suppose instead of particles there could be continuous stuff or force fields or something else. Are they particles or are they waves........

Edited by Tanypteryx, : No reason given.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by GDR, posted 12-29-2015 12:47 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by GDR, posted 12-29-2015 9:07 PM Tanypteryx has responded

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2276
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 95 of 478 (775206)
12-30-2015 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by GDR
12-29-2015 9:07 PM


Tanypteryx writes:

Well, the hypotheses I am familiar with all have very simple chemistry initially that slowly gets more and more complex.

Fine but why does that simple chemistry exist in the first place?

What if Elenor Roosevelt had wings? I take it you really don't expect an answer from me.

Tanypteryx writes:

That sounds like an easy answer, but it isn't good enough. There are no details of how or why. There is no evidence, no signature, no way to even study it.

What is the deal with always referring to "mindless particles?" Do you have any example of particles with minds? Or any reason to think particles could have minds?

Well, I would contend that our all life and particularly the fact that we are sentient is evidence. We may come to different conclusions but I obviously believe that that sways the argument towards there be a pre-existing intelligence.

You pretty much skewered any chance at rebuttal when you can declare that literally anything is evidence. I can see what you obviously believe but feel no pressure that could cause me to sway.

Of course particles don't have minds. That is the point. All that we are aware of is made up of particles that we both agree are mindless and yet here we are, a collection of mindless particles and yet we have minds.

No, that isn't the point. The point is that there is no reason we should in any context expect particles to have minds so it is ridiculous to keep referring to them as mindless.

They are just particles period, and we are made up more of electromagnetic fields between electrons than particles themselves.

I agree we are alive in this Universe, but that doesn't suggest an overmind to me. If such an entity exists it has left no trace that would convince everyone. There is no discernable difference between an overmind entity that leaves no trace and no overmind entity at all.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by GDR, posted 12-29-2015 9:07 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by GDR, posted 12-30-2015 5:56 PM Tanypteryx has responded

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2276
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 115 of 478 (775280)
12-30-2015 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by GDR
12-30-2015 5:56 PM


OK, thanks for answering. We seem to be at such extremes in our views that there is no point in continuing, so carry on.

Happy New Year.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by GDR, posted 12-30-2015 5:56 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
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