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Author Topic:   Jesus and his sacrifice is Satan’s test of man’s morality.
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 221 of 478 (775752)
01-04-2016 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by kbertsche
01-03-2016 11:20 PM


Re: Can't have it both ways
kbertsche writes:
Yes, I believe that for God, everything is "now".
Can't you conceive of God existing "outside" of time, in a higher dimension, so that He can look down and see all time spread out before Him? This is outside of our experience, of course, but it is analogous to our ability to look down at a Flatland world and see the whole thing at once, whereas a Flatland creature is bound in two dimensions. Analogously, we are bound in the time dimension but God is not.
Actually, 3 dimensional creatures couldn't see the future any more than the flatlanders. I am not saying that God is bound by one time dimension. I am saying that God may be very good a predicting the future, but it does not mean that He has absolute knowledge of it.
kbertsche writes:
The only alternative that I can see is to propose that God is bound by time as we are. But this makes no sense. How can the creator be bound by His creation?
He us not bound by His creation but if He by choice or necessity had to create a world where the future is truly open and unknown even to Him, then why should you suggest that He can't.
kbertsche writes:
The Holy Spirit was sent to convict people of sin and to lead us into all truth. The need for this is not affected by God knowing the entire future. Why would it be?
If God knows our entire life before we are born then it is fixed. It can't be changed and we would not have the free will to accept or reject Him, and it makes the Holy Spirit redundant. I am not restricting God to one dimension of time. I am saying that He relates to us uni-dimensionally.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by kbertsche, posted 01-03-2016 11:20 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by kbertsche, posted 01-04-2016 6:22 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 222 of 478 (775754)
01-04-2016 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Phat
01-04-2016 1:45 AM


Re: Changing Ones Mind
Phat writes:
Keep in mind that what God sees is you doing a future action that you chose. You couldn't deviate from it without changing your mind at that moment. You already chose the action. And lets say God observed you at time-point 1.15. You then changed your mind at 1.16. What we would then have is God observing you at 1.17 or later. God observes us changing our minds quite often. He also observes us doing what we chose to do.(at any given point in time)
I get all of that but it does not negate the fact that all of our life choices, no matter how many times we change our mind are fixed before we are even born.
God is all knowing of what is knowable but the point is that scripturally and reasonably He has created a world, by choice, where the future is open and unknown even to lHim.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Phat, posted 01-04-2016 1:45 AM Phat has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 224 of 478 (775756)
01-04-2016 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Aussie
01-04-2016 8:45 AM


Re: misrepresentation
Aussie writes:
You are fortunate in that you questioned it at an early age. I am the son of a preacher and was steeped in it from infancy. I even preached it for years before the unanswerable questions became too many. Reading the Bible back nowadays fills me with constant wonder that I could have fallen for such barbarism. The merciless brutality of the cross when He could have chosen to...forgive. Jesus "Paying the price" is not forgiveness. It's paying the freaking sky-high price!
What are we teaching our kids? That when they are wronged in the schoolyard or playground that the should forgive ONLY after extracting a heinous penalty from the wrongdoer? Or some other innocent kid who had nothing to do with the incident? That's not what forgiveness means.
It's just absurd.
I agree and if I felt that Christianity in that light I would reject it as well. If I beleived that God was genocidal and cruel when it suited him then I might possibly still believe that He was God but I wouldn't worship Him. It isn't fundamentalism or nothing.
As far as the Cross is concerned it was people that crucified Him and it was God that resurrected Him.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Aussie, posted 01-04-2016 8:45 AM Aussie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Aussie, posted 01-04-2016 6:26 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 226 of 478 (775759)
01-04-2016 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Faith
01-04-2016 9:24 AM


Faith writes:
And what that means is to spread the truth about who God is and ultimately bring salvation to the whole world. That's what the blessing is.
Presumably then the whole world includes Muslims. However I agree that salvation isn't about you or I going to heaven but it is about the renewal of all things.
Faith writes:
I don't know what attempting to control God means, but the Jews still make it all about them, about the land of Israel and wisdom they feel called to spread to the world, which of course doesn't include Jesus the Messiah whom they deny.
They, along with many people now, try to control God by following laws or practices in order that He will respond positively. It is like those today who claim that by believing the correct doctrine they get to live forever in a comfortable place, which essentially turns faith into a work.
GDR writes:
I think that as Christians we have the same lesson to learn. God is god of all and not just Christians. Christians aren't special.
Faith writes:
This is just weird. Christians are those who believe what God said, that makes us special. God is certainly God of all, there is only one God, and everybody should believe what He said. But only those who do believe Him are His in the special sense of being saved.
Presumably then, everyone who isn't saved by "belief" will be damned to hell. That isn't scriptural or Christian, and it makes God who brought all of creation into existence out to be small minded.
Faith writes:
This is extremely weird. All this is what is known as "Open Theism?" Another human distortion of God's will obviously. Salvation is the gift God gives to all who believe, but it doesn't stop there, "all about us" of all the nutty ideas, our job is to take that message to as many as we can so that they may believe too.
If Christianity is all about personal salvation then it is self focused plain and simple. Primarily our job is to be serveants to the world by reflecting God's love into it. If through that people come to know and acknowledge God's love in their lives then so much the better.
Faith writes:
Another really silly idea. The Creation stopped being good in the sense it was when created, when our first parents disobeyed God and brought themselves and the entire Creation under His curse. While we are certainly to be good stewards of the creation, our mission is to spread the good news of the gospel of salvation through the death of Christ, which pays for the sins that would otherwise have to be paid for by us in an eternity of Hell. Sure sounds like good news to me, whereas "serving the Creation" just sounds like some sort of sanctimonious stickysweet nonsense.
Those of us who grow up in Christian cultures sure get all the breaks eh? Is God the God of all or not. Just read the Gospels to see what they actually say.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Faith, posted 01-04-2016 9:24 AM Faith has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 227 of 478 (775760)
01-04-2016 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Faith
01-04-2016 2:51 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Faith writes:
Judging God to be evil is the greatest evil there could ever be. We are told God is good and believers believe it. You self-righteously judge Him.
It isn't Aussie and myself who are judging God to be evil, it's you Faith There is that bit in Matthew 12:31. "And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven." This was Jesus' response when the Pharisees accused Him this way in verse 14: " But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."
The great sin is calling "evil" good or calling "good" evil. This is exactly what you are doing when you saying that God who is all good could commit acts of evil. Can you really say that genocide or public stoning for petty offences isn't evil?

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Faith, posted 01-04-2016 2:51 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by Faith, posted 01-04-2016 7:13 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 230 of 478 (775764)
01-04-2016 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by Aussie
01-04-2016 6:26 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Aussie writes:
Jesus was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the Earth.
God had plans to torture and kill him long before there were people.
That would be the fundamentalist take on it. I think the primary way to understand who Jesus was and how He fit into things is in John 1. Jesus perfectly embodied the Word and wisdom of God and the Word or Wisdom of God pre-dated the creation as it just always was. This does not mean that Jesus had memories of a time prior to His birth andy more than you or I do.
Jesus through prayer and His uderstanding of the Scriptures felt that he was called to go into Jerusalem as the Messiah and perform the actions that He did. He knew that by doing this He would upset virtually everyone with power. In those days when you did that, it would be unlikely that you would get out with your life. He went into Jerusalem as an act of faith believing that some how God would ultimately make it right. It was the choice of men committing an act of evil in the crucifixion that God responded to.
In resurrecting Jesus, God was making the statement that evil does not have the last word and that ultimately evil will lose.
I'd say that God always had a plan to deal with the evil that exists in our world and that some how, along the lines of the Son of Man coming to the Ancient of Days in Daniel 7 He has given Jesus authority and established His eternal Kingdom. That does not mean that God pre-planned a specific act of the evil that the crucifixion was.
As we see in numerous places in the Bible God responds to the actions of men good and bad. I suggest that this is the unique instance where God has fully responded to evil in the manner that He will deal with evil at the end of time whenever that is.
Paul puts it this way in Ephesians 1. "9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ."
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Aussie, posted 01-04-2016 6:26 PM Aussie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Aussie, posted 01-05-2016 10:13 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 232 of 478 (775768)
01-04-2016 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by Faith
01-04-2016 7:13 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Faith writes:
God defines what is good and what is evil; you don't.
What about Jesus then. He preached very strongly against this kind of behaviour, to the point of saying that even with the brutal treatment they were receiving from their Roman occupiers that they were to respond in love, turn the other cheek and go the extra mile. You read the Bible as being inerrant at the expense of what Jesus taught.
Faith writes:
How many times do I have to say it? It's not genocide, it's justice, punishment for sin.
So your idea of God's justice is to kill innocent babies. Whether you like it or not you are calling evil good.
If you actually believe that then, why would you want to worship a god like that. It sounds like that no matter what God's nature is you're prepared to worship Him. That it brings it back to the idea of getting God on your side and your version of Christianity is all about you, which is the exact opposite of the Jesus of the Bible.
Faith writes:
I already explained why picking up firewood on the Sabbath isn't a "petty offense" but a serious offense worthy of death.
Yes, which just goes to show that it you will justify anything to make it consistent with your non-scriptural way of understanding the Bible.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Faith, posted 01-04-2016 7:13 PM Faith has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 250 of 478 (775831)
01-05-2016 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Aussie
01-05-2016 10:13 AM


Re: misrepresentation
Aussie writes:
First of all, you have quoted a couple of my favorite books of the Bible. I love the first three chapters of John, and I think the book of Ephesians is soaring literature that still moves me although I no longer believe.
I'm a little confused over your post though. You sound as if you are saying that the crucifixion was unplanned? I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding you. I have never heard anyone say this.
John 3:14-15 says "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up."
Or Matt 16:21 " From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders chief priests and scribes, and be killed and raised the third day."
Again I'm sorry but I don't quite get what you are saying...
Hi Aussi
Paul writes this i 1 Cor 15: "4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve."
If you notice he says according to the scriptures. There are a number of occasions in the Jewish Scriptures where the period 3 days is used including Jonah in the whale.
When Jesus uses the term "Son of Man" He is inevitably referring back to Daniel 7 where one like a "Son of Man' is raised up to the "Ancient of Days" and given dominion over all.
I contend that it is pretty clear that Jesus, through the scriptures, through knowledge of the politics of the time and through prayer believed on faith that He was to go into Jerusalem knowing that when He did that He would upset everyone and in all likelihood be put to death. He further believed that He would be raised up to the "Ancient of Days or God the Father" as per Daniel 7. This would establish the Kingdom, (the Good News is far more about God's Kingdom be established with Jesus as Lord than it is about personal salvation), again as per Daniel 7.
Jesus did what He did as an act of faith based on prayer and the Scriptures when He did what He did. I doubt that He had the resurrection as it ultimately played out in mind when He said what He did.
Genesis tells us that God gave humans the mandate to look after the world and its inhabitants. God works through the hearts and minds of humans. Even when He returned to Hid people He did it through the man Jesus.
I contend that God responded to the crucifixion as the ultimate evil of which death plays a big part, and that Jesus went into Jerusalem with the knowledge of what was almost certain to happen to Him when He did.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Aussie, posted 01-05-2016 10:13 AM Aussie has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 275 of 478 (775984)
01-07-2016 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by ringo
01-07-2016 10:53 AM


Re: misrepresentation
kbertsche writes:
I find it disturbing that you would even ask that question.
If God told me to sacrifice my child, HELL NO, I would not obey. I would refuse with extreme prejudice. Any sane human being would do the same.
This is I agree really disturbing and it points out to a large degree the fundamentalist view.
All religion requires a view of the nature of their deity and then have a world view of how that should impact their life.
In the case of Jesus it was all about serving others, loving your enemy, self sacrifice etc. With the fundamentalist view, including an inerrant Bible, it paints a different picture of the nature of God which, although it includes the above, it has as part of the nature of God that he can be cruel to the point of requiring people at various points of time to be prepared to sacrifice your only child, to commit genocide or public stoning.
The point then is they are prepared to follow a god not because he is always good but simply because he is god. The reason that one follows a god like that is because it is their best interest to do so. In the fundamentalist case it is all about personal salvation. I realize it doesn't play out in the same way but in one sense it makes it no different than a true believers in ISIS, as you might see in a suicide bomber.
If the fundamentalists would focus on Jesus with the belief that Jesus fully represented the nature of God instead of focusing on an inerrant Bible it would a religion that is more truly Christian and less Biblian.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by ringo, posted 01-07-2016 10:53 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 306 of 478 (776037)
01-07-2016 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by NoNukes
01-07-2016 6:53 PM


Re: YYes Re: misrepresentation
NoNukes writes:
Most Christians have no problem identifying that things like massacres of babies and having bears maul children for making fun of beards are difficult and problematic. I've seen many possible explanations for why such things happened, but very few of them as sick as what I read here.
Of course that is the truth. Despite Faith's protestations most Christians have not simply assumed that God was in those actions. We can learn from those stories as they are simply a demonstration of the evil that men can do, and how the name of their god can be used as an instrument of terror for power and control. Again though, it is Christianity, and we are to be followers of Jesus Christ who renounced that behaviour in no uncertain terms.
Jesus lived in a country that was being brutally controlled by the Romans. He denounced the revolutionaries. He said that in dealing with the Romans that they were to respond with love, go the extra mile and bravely turn the other cheek.
The point was that the enemy was not really the Romans, but evil itself, and if you respond to evil with more evil then evil will win every time. It takes courage and determination to respond to evil in a Christ-like manner, but that is what Christians are called to do.
Fundamentalists are simply looking for easy pat answers by following a inerrant Bible instead of following Jesus. It is tragic that the life and message of Jesus Christ has been so distorted that it has been turned 180 degrees from the message He brought as the embodiment or incarnation of the Word of God.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by NoNukes, posted 01-07-2016 6:53 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by Faith, posted 01-07-2016 11:16 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 313 of 478 (776081)
01-08-2016 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 307 by Faith
01-07-2016 11:16 PM


Re: YYes Re: misrepresentation
Faith writes:
God IS said to have commanded the total annihilation of the Amalekites and it's a very strange excuse for a "Christian" who pretends He didn't say it.
Since you all prefer your personal feelings to objective fact there's no point in continuing this discussion.
Hi Faith
But I go again to the fact that the Bible says that Yahweh commanded the Israelites to their total annihilation. If Yahweh wanted them all destroyed why didn't He just do it Himself? Why have His people do it. In the first place it won't happen without some of His own people being killed. Secondly we know full well how much damage it would do to someone psychologically to go out and slaughter men, women and children including infants.
Just answer this question. If Yahweh wanted them all dead why didn't He just do it Himself as in Sodom and Gomorrah. This would have saved His people the deaths they would have suffered, the psychological damage that they would have endured and the job would have been done more completely.
Nobody here is talking with objective fact. Yes you can objectively quote the Bible but it is your personal feeling, or subjective view, about how the Bible is to be understood just as it is mine and everyone else here.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by Faith, posted 01-07-2016 11:16 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by Faith, posted 01-08-2016 11:44 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 319 of 478 (776087)
01-08-2016 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by Faith
01-08-2016 11:44 AM


Re: YYes Re: misrepresentation
Faith writes:
Funny the question why God didn't do it Himself was brought up on one of the Bible discussions I was just reading recently but I was looking for something else and now don't remember where I saw it.I think the answer was something along the lines of God's using His people as His instrument. In the days of Sodom He didn't yet have a "people." God's people were to be like His right arm.
But that doesn't answer the question. With your method of understanding the Bible it is clear that Yahweh was perfectly capable of annihilating a community all on His own. So now that He has a chosen people why would He see many of them killed and mentally damaged. Why wouldn't He spare His people that anguish when He could do the job more effectively Himself.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Faith, posted 01-08-2016 11:44 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by Faith, posted 01-08-2016 6:37 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 326 of 478 (776117)
01-08-2016 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by Faith
01-08-2016 6:37 PM


Re: YYes Re: misrepresentation
Faith writes:
You are of course only interested in calling God's actions into question.
Look Faith. My whole life and world view is based on my Christian faith as a follower of Jesus Christ. You seem to be interested in following a specific understanding of the Bible that is inconsistent with being a follower of Christ.
I am not questioning God, I am simply seeking as good an understanding as I can of truth, even if it is ultimately by faith. My faith tells me that the slaughter of children by the ones that God has called to spread the knowledge of His love for the world is relabelling evil as good.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Faith, posted 01-08-2016 6:37 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by Faith, posted 01-08-2016 10:14 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 333 of 478 (776146)
01-09-2016 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 274 by kbertsche
01-07-2016 12:17 PM


Following your god for good or evil
kbertsche writes:
Here we see a difference between a believer and an unbeliever. An unbeliever (like you two) will set himself as an authority above God, and will question and judge God at every step. A believer will trust and obey God. Abraham is uniformly praised in Scripture for his faith in God and his willingness to obey whatever God commanded. He did the right thing in obeying God.
What would I actually have done if I had been Abraham? I can't be sure. I hope I would have had the faith of Abraham, but I would probably have wondered very seriously whether or not I was hearing God correctly.
This is where most of the world's believers have such a problem with you and Faith. As Christians we both believe that we are made in the image of God. We have received the knowledge of the difference between good and evil. We know the difference and we choose between the two.
One of the choices that we make as theists is our understanding of the nature of god and then we choose to follow that god or not. You and I our getting our understanding of the nature of God from two different sources. Mine is from the words and wisdom of Jesus, who I believe perfectly embodied the Word and wisdom of God, and you gain your understanding from an inerrant Bible. The two natures are not compatible.
In your statement above you are agreeing that you would hope that you would have the faith to follow through with something evil because God told you to. That is what the followers of ISIS hope that they will have the faith for as well.
I humbly suggest that you are not following the God of Jesus Christ. You are following a religion that largely came out of the reformation where all of a sudden average people were finally able to access the Bible that had been kept from them for years. For some it became a virtual idol.
Things like the crusades were not about spreading Christianity but about gaining power in the same way that ISIS is now. Christianity is spread by reflecting the love of God into all of creation.
The point is not to be a follower of any deity just because you believe that particular deity is god but because you believe that deity is always good and always just. A good and just god does not slaughter innocents. If I had to believe that god was genocidal or cruel depending on the circumstances then I won't follow Him.
Just read the Sermon on the Mount and you can see the various places that Jesus corrects what is written in the OT. Jesus does not follow the god that you follow. Read the following two Biblical quotes. The first is from Deuteronomy 23 and the 2nd from Matthew 5.
quote:
3 No Ammonite or Moabite or any of his descendants may enter the assembly of the LORD, even down to the tenth generation. 4 For they did not come to meet you with bread and water on your way when you came out of Egypt, and they hired Balaam son of Beor from Pethor in Aram Naharaim to pronounce a curse on you.#cr 5 However, the LORD your God would not listen to Balaam but turned the curse into a blessing for you, because the LORD your God loves you. 6 Do not seek a treaty of friendship with them as long as you live.
quote:
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Jesus doesn't refer to what was written in the Hebrew Scriptures as being from God. He says simply that "you have heard it said". Jesus did not follow in an inerrant scripture. He then corrects what was written. Rather than succumbing to the evil in the world, with more evil as you are justifying Yahweh of doing, Jesus confronted it head on and went to the cross. God then confirmed Jesus by resurrecting Him.
In the hypothetical case of Abraham and his son, I would hope that I would have the faith to protect the life of my son, from an evil god, even at the cost of my own life.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by kbertsche, posted 01-07-2016 12:17 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by kbertsche, posted 01-09-2016 12:58 PM GDR has replied
 Message 344 by Faith, posted 01-09-2016 1:00 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 345 by Faith, posted 01-09-2016 3:10 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 352 by Faith, posted 01-09-2016 8:41 PM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 348 of 478 (776162)
01-09-2016 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 343 by kbertsche
01-09-2016 12:58 PM


Re: Following your god for good or evil
kbertsche writes:
GDR, I understand where you are coming from, but I disagree. My ancestors were Mennonite, and they saw things much the way that you do. The Sermon on the Mount was elevated above other biblical texts. My grandmother was convinced that the God of the OT was a different God than the God of the NT.
What is wrong with elevating the longest most complete sermon we have that Jesus gave. Remember it is called Christianity not Biblianity. It just proves my point. You worship the Bible ahead of Jesus.
It isn't that they are different gods, it is that the OT tells a narrative about how the Jews continued to grow in their understanding of the nature of God, from the hard nosed deity in Leviticus, to the suffering servant in Isaiah, to the verse from Micah that I use for a signature, and finally to its climax and full revelation in Jesus Christ.
kbertsche writes:
I agree that some of these OT passages are very difficult. Yet Abraham's faith in nearly sacrificing his son is praised throughout Scripture; this is presented as a good thing. And it is pertinent to this thread, in that it foreshadowed God's sacrifice of Jesus (the thread topic).
It occurs once in the NT in the book of Hebrews, and not at all in the Gospels. It is just as useful, and can be used just as meaningfully as a fore-shadowing if the account is metaphorical as opposed to being historical.
kbertsche writes:
I believe that much of the difference in reaction here can be summarized by "relationship to God". Those who have a close personal relationship to God know Him as good and tend to trust Him. Those who don't will distrust and question Him at every step. As an example, consider a good, healthy marriage relationship; spouses tend to trust one another implicitly. But consider a marriage where spouses continually distrust and question one another's judgment; this marriage won't last long.
You seem to think that you have a closer relationship with God than those who hold to a different understanding of the scriptures than you do. I trust Him completely to the point that I know He isn't guilty of genocide. You aren't trusting in God you are trusting in a completely non-critical reading of the Scripture.
There is the one verse in the Bible that says that scripture is God breathed and goes on to say it useful for training etc. That verse is simply saying that we can learn about God through the scriptures. The NT wasn't even thought about at that time, and the Jewish Scriptures being referred to aren't exactly the same as what we have today either.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by kbertsche, posted 01-09-2016 12:58 PM kbertsche has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 349 by jar, posted 01-09-2016 5:22 PM GDR has not replied

  
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