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Author Topic:   Jesus and his sacrifice is Satan’s test of man’s morality.
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 359 of 478 (776235)
01-10-2016 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 358 by Tangle
01-10-2016 3:57 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Since you don't believe in any of this your words are pretty weak and irrelevant anyway, but I do believe in God and I believe just what the scripture tells us, that He decreed judgment against certain peoples for their disobedience by wiping out the whole tribe. That was decreed, what, two or three times some 3500 years ago, wasn't even faithfully carried out, and that's the last we hear of it in the Bible but for some reason I'm supposed to think God has no right to do as He pleases in His own creation. I defend God's right to enact judgment according to His own analysis of the situation and you make a big moral issue of it, very popular these days, but very silly. I'm happy to be one of a great company of Bible believers who don't judge God, knowing that we'll be judged on terms of such silly human self-righteousness but that in the end you'll meet God for yourself anyway. Not a happy prospect I would think.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by Tangle, posted 01-10-2016 3:57 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by Tangle, posted 01-10-2016 6:24 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 361 of 478 (776238)
01-10-2016 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 360 by Tangle
01-10-2016 6:24 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Has anybody noticed that there is no substance to this argument at all, it's only an excuse to attack a member on judgmental moralistic grounds?
Does anybody care? Of course not. That's the way everything is going these days. Destroy the reputation of a person or a class of persons and that's considered to be fair debate.
No more avoid making the debate personal, the whole thing is personal. I'm evil, or need psychiatric "help" for being a believer in the God of the Bible, period, anything I say to defend the Bible is scorned, and by extension all Bible inerrancy Christians are just as evil. Christians who behead no one, who try as well as we can to love our neighbors even against such provocations as these and so on.
I can call you evil back, for doing that to me, but at EvC all the favor is on your side. In fact I suppose this is all partly a reaction to being told that you are going to be judged for your sins anyway, the truth of which goes begging while outrage escalates.
Of course I know God wins in the end but it's sad to see the world go to Hell with such alacrity in the meantime.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by Tangle, posted 01-10-2016 6:24 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by Aussie, posted 01-10-2016 8:11 PM Faith has replied
 Message 368 by Tangle, posted 01-11-2016 3:15 AM Faith has replied
 Message 372 by Admin, posted 01-11-2016 8:38 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 363 of 478 (776241)
01-10-2016 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by Aussie
01-10-2016 8:11 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Your post should be framed and mounted at the head of the thread as exactly what I'm talking about. Doesn't bother you one bit to attack another human being from your own crabbed twisted jaundiced "moral" perspective, in a way that's worse than any Thought Police invasion of personal freedom up to this time that I can think of. I've said nothing that defends "killing babies," what I defend is the sovereign just God's determination of righteous judgment and you twist that into the accusation that I'm defending murder. Kinda reminds me of the propaganda they threw at the Jews once-upon-a-dreary-time. Such an egregious intrusion on another human being's freedom of thought and speech is beyond even a constitutional issue, it's exactly what civilized people would have scorned doing to anyone not so long ago. Actually as I think about it such attacks should be criminally liable. But perverted idiosyncratic self-righteousness rules now. This is oddly enough one of the signs that we are in the very last days. I probably won't be around for the mass beheadings, though I'll be sorry to miss all the excitement.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Aussie, posted 01-10-2016 8:11 PM Aussie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 364 by jar, posted 01-10-2016 8:33 PM Faith has replied
 Message 373 by Admin, posted 01-11-2016 8:41 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 379 by Aussie, posted 01-11-2016 1:05 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 365 of 478 (776243)
01-10-2016 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 364 by jar
01-10-2016 8:33 PM


Or really as a fake Christian
My GOODNESS, jar, I think you hit the nail right on its scabby little head.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by jar, posted 01-10-2016 8:33 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 366 by jar, posted 01-10-2016 10:07 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 367 of 478 (776254)
01-11-2016 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 366 by jar
01-10-2016 10:07 PM


altering titles
Gosh, two lies in one sentence. However, I agree with you about the re: even if not your accusation about it, so I will remove it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 369 of 478 (776258)
01-11-2016 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 368 by Tangle
01-11-2016 3:15 AM


Re: misrepresentation
I don't think I said you accused me of needing psychiatric help but somebody did. Oh, Aussie. Sorry, I probably should have made that a generic reply instead of addressing it to you.
I'm calling the murder of children by your God evil Faith, not you.
And I am strenuously disagreeing with you. You are calling justice murder. Sorry, you don't get to tell God how to run His creation. The idea that you can come along and say such things to someone who has been a Christian for almost thirty years, and by extension to a two-thousand-year history of millions of Christians who all believed the same text, and accuse us of something that never entered our minds or influenced our behavior in the way you suppose it should, is high-handedly self-righteously judgmental in the extreme.
You're deflecting to avoid the difficulty of reconciling such evil acts with a loving god.
I have ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM with reconciling God's judgments of evil acts with His being a loving God. None whatever. You and others here are having a kneejerk self-righteous moralistic fit against God, and against people who couldn't deserve it less, and I refuse to give you the slightest credence. We are to learn from God. Judging God is off-the-charts human arrogance.
It's such things that have led most Christians to set inerrancy aside and reform their religion, a process that has not yet happened with the Koran. You see why we make the connection? And the dangers of believing these horrible stories?
THERE IS NO CONNECTION WHATEVER. The Koran has inspired an entire history of murderous tyrannical actions against nonMuslims; the Bible has inspired nothing but constructive peaceable actions in the world, WITH MINOR EXCEPTIONS THAT ARE EASILY ATTRIBUTED TO ERROR, NOT THE BIBLE. If you point to the spectre of the Crusades and the Inquisition let me point out that all that occurred during the Dark Ages when the Bible was NOT read or taken as authority and in the case of the Inquisition when it was the Bible believers who were most persecuted. You do NOT know what you are talking about. You and the others here are inventing a totally bogus excuse to condemn Christians on the basis of NOTHING WHATEVER, making up a disgustingly bogus moral equivalence with Islam yet. There is no "danger" whatever in believing the Old Testament and you have no evidence of such a danger, it's all invented by emotional outrage. YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. In two thousand years I would bet that NOT ONE SINGLE TRUE BIBLE BELIEVER HAS EVER BEEN MOTIVATED TO DO VIOLENCE OR HARM TO ANYONE BECAUSE OF THE HISTORICAL INCIDENTS IN THE O.T. THAT ARE EXERCISING YOU. This is a ridiculous trumped-up set of lies and I don't know why it's so easy for people to fall into it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by Tangle, posted 01-11-2016 3:15 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by Tangle, posted 01-11-2016 4:07 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 371 by Tangle, posted 01-11-2016 6:30 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 374 of 478 (776278)
01-11-2016 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 371 by Tangle
01-11-2016 6:30 AM


Christian? violence
There's nothing "balanced" about that article at all. I scanned it, finding that as is always the case the incidents are almost exclusively Catholic-originated against Protestants. In short the article is predominantly about Catholic violence, not Christian violence.
It's clear this is going to be the case when the Crusades and the Inquisition are included as "Christian" which they were not. They were antichristian and attacked the true Bible Christians. I know you want to insist on the typical unfounded assumption that Roman Catholicism is Christian, but I won't accept it because it simply is NOT Christian and it's offensive that I get blamed for what they did, and usually did to true Christians.
Since Catholicism was rejected by the Reformers as Antichrist that means we're talking about Christians being attacked by an antichristian organization, which is very much the way it has been since the beginning. In other words the article is not talking about CHRISTIAN "violence" at all, unless you mean violence AGAINST Christians.
There are some topics that aren't that clear of course, so I'll leave it to you if you want to discuss any of them since I would have to do more research than I'm up to at the moment. But if you identify a particular topic you think proves me wrong I'll do what I can to rally to the cause. However, hm, that would be such a small number of issues the whole idea of Christian violence is as good as falsified.
ABE: Also, when corporal punishment and the death penalty are listed as "violence" the article has gone so far over into the land of political correctness the topic has been completely lost, and now I'm inclined to dismiss the whole thing as a piece of biased rubbish.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by Tangle, posted 01-11-2016 6:30 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 377 by Tangle, posted 01-11-2016 12:50 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 375 of 478 (776279)
01-11-2016 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 372 by Admin
01-11-2016 8:38 AM


Re: Moderator Requests
You say to ask about easy quoting so I'm asking. I had the idea from your earlier note on the subject that using the Peek mode should solve the problem, but all it solves is providing the quote codes for the statements already quoted; I still have to insert codes for the new post, unless I'm not understanding this rightly.

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 Message 372 by Admin, posted 01-11-2016 8:38 AM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 376 by Admin, posted 01-11-2016 12:22 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 383 of 478 (776340)
01-12-2016 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 377 by Tangle
01-11-2016 12:50 PM


Re: Christian? violence
Faith writes:
In short the article is predominantly about Catholic violence, not Christian violence.
Just like you don't get to have a personal definition of a Muslim, you don't get to define Christian. There are 1.2bn Catholics in the world and they are defined as Christians whether you like it or not.
Yes, I can't very well expect you to care about the fact that they aren't, so that the title is wrongly appropriated, but while some individual Catholics may qualify as Christians, the Roman Catholic institution is not Christian at all no matter what Wikipedia says.
They use the same book which contains the same atrocities.
During the periods of the Crusades and the various Inquisitions they DIDN'T use that book. That's the point here. Are we talking about the supposed influence of something in that book or not? I thought we were. If they didn't base their violence on it, which they didn't, then you have no case whatever for your claim that the Bible provokes violence.
Wikipedia writes:
The history of the Catholic Church begins with the teachings of Jesus Christ, who lived and preached in the 1st century AD in the province of Judea of the Roman Empire. The contemporary Catholic Church says that it is the continuation of the early Christian community established by Jesus.
Which is Catholic propaganda corrected in many other histories that never get read by the public. The RCC began with the establishment of the papacy at Rome and the claim to have authority over the other major centers of Christianity, usually dated at 606 AD, though the trend in that direction was certainly begun by Constantine a couple of centuries earlier. The point is that the RCC was a DEVIATION from the early church. Their history is really quite interesting, mostly a collection of interesting official lies enforced by very unchristian means of power.
However, the point here is that the BIBLE didn't much inform anything they did after Constantine, their actions were a fulfillment of pagan ideology backed by state power.
Perhaps it would be clearer if we stuck to the Bible accounts of the two incidents of God's judgments against sin that you think inspire violence in Christians, no matter who you think the Christians are. They don't.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 377 by Tangle, posted 01-11-2016 12:50 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 390 by Tangle, posted 01-12-2016 11:32 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 385 of 478 (776343)
01-12-2016 11:05 AM


The Bible references we are talking about
Percy asked for the Bible references under discussion here to be quoted, about God's ordering the complete annihilation of a people. I think the first one must be in the book of Joshua after the Israelites finally entered the land of Canaan after their desert wanderings, but I can't locate it for sure. I did locate the one a few hundred years later where the prophet Samuel gives Saul the message from God to completely destroy the Amalekites:
1Sa 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 386 of 478 (776344)
01-12-2016 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 376 by Admin
01-11-2016 12:22 PM


Re: Moderator Requests
dup
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 376 by Admin, posted 01-11-2016 12:22 PM Admin has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 387 of 478 (776345)
01-12-2016 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 376 by Admin
01-11-2016 12:22 PM


Re: Moderator Requests
Thanks for repeating the information about quoting. That is what I had understood and I did do it a few times but kept lapsing into my old method, partly because I never remember to go to the Peek page before hitting the Reply button. Your method is somewhat easier so I'll try to get in the habit of it.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 388 of 478 (776347)
01-12-2016 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 384 by GDR
01-12-2016 10:49 AM


Re: Rationalizing Killing
Blue Jay writes:
However, the part I get hung up on is the part where God chooses to work through fallible, mortal agents to enact these justified killings. The Bible makes it clear that God is capable of doing His own killing, so I’m not sure why He’s hiring assassins to do it for Him; especially if it makes it that much easier for misguided followers and malicious pretenders to obscure their illegitimate murders behind a pretext of divine sanction.
I made that point with Faith earlier in the thread and of course there is no answer other that that she trusts God. Actually, it isnt about trusting God or even Jesus but about trusting in the idea that God essentially dictated an infallible Bible. That is simply an idea that grew out of the reformation with no reasonable rationale for it.
I fail to grasp the importance of the distinction. People are killed in this world by many means, some we can attribute to God without human hand, such as natural catastrophes, and some to violence or accidents at the hands of human beings, which a believer in the sovereignty of God of course attributes to God's workings as well.
If the Bible could have been manipulated to legitimize the actions of "misquided followers and malicious pretenders" there is no reason to take the Bible seriously at all. It's Bible inerrancy or nothing.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 391 by jar, posted 01-12-2016 11:44 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 395 by NoNukes, posted 01-12-2016 2:19 PM Faith has replied
 Message 423 by Blue Jay, posted 01-15-2016 12:27 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 392 of 478 (776352)
01-12-2016 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 390 by Tangle
01-12-2016 11:32 AM


Re: Christian? violence
It's very hard to have a conversation with someone who knows as little of the history in question as you do, and who insists on the bogus propagandist histories publically available. Your quotes about the wars of the Old Testament mean nothing if the Bible wasn't even read by the majority of "Christians" you accuse of committing violence. The OT remains a history of ancient events.
One thing you really ought to know already, however, because it's pretty much common knowledge, is that there was a very long period when the RCC actually condemned the reading of the Bible in the vernacular. That's basically the entire Dark Ages.
They persecuted and put to death those who went around preaching the gospel from the Bible, and particularly those who translated it into the people's languages, such as Wycliffe and Tyndale. I would have thought this was common knowledge. The priests had access to the Latin Bible but it seems they often didn't much make use of it, preferring the pagan writer Aristotle.
The great rediscovery of the Reformation was the Bible itself that had been kept from the people for centuries, while silly superstitions were taught in its place -- the worship of Mary and prayer to her and the other "saints," many of whom had been carried over from Roman gods, the value of "relics," the deceit that you could get someone out of a nonexistent "purgatory" by paying money etc. The idea that the Inquisition or the Crusades or any other violence by the RCC was based on the Bible is sheer fantasy.
Here's a history of the RCC that could put some of this in proper perspective for anyone interested in the truth: The History of Romanism by J. Dowling.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by Tangle, posted 01-12-2016 11:32 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 393 of 478 (776353)
01-12-2016 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 379 by Aussie
01-11-2016 1:05 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Wow, but you don't think you are making me into a Jew ripe for the slaughter? Wow, just wow.
My view of the Bible represents the entire Protestant movement since the Reformation, though my defense of Bible Protestantism is pretty paltry compared to the big names I admire. You are attacking the greatest of the great with your surly moralisms. I don't know how many of the true defenders of Bible inerrancy still survive after the onslaughts of all the apostate theologies but we may still be in the millions. We defend the authenticity of the Bible as the true report of God's doings in the world, none of which has ever influenced a single Christian to the actions you so denounce, but should the Inquisition resurface again, which really could happen (it persists underground in various Catholic countries), we'll be the first to go and you can pat yourself on the back for being an instigator of such goodness in the world.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by Aussie, posted 01-11-2016 1:05 PM Aussie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 394 by Aussie, posted 01-12-2016 1:58 PM Faith has not replied

  
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