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Author Topic:   Jesus and his sacrifice is Satan’s test of man’s morality.
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 125 of 478 (775323)
12-31-2015 4:04 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by GDR
12-30-2015 6:26 PM


GDR writes:
I still don't buy your point about belief. It isn't a lack of belief in pixies, it is my belief that they don't exist.
An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in god. That's it, nothing else. Nothing more complicated than that. No-one knows whether god exists or not, but some people are pretty convinced that he doesn't - I'm one of them - but most atheists will say that they don't know if god exists or not. Nevertheless, they don't have a belief that he does.
Presumably the atheistic belief is that God doesn't exist.
No, not necessarily, they just don't believe in a god.
If an individual hasn't considered the notion of god(s) then presumably they wouldn't call themselves atheistic. When someone says, "I am an atheist", they are making a considered statement that they have come to the conclusion or belief that there is no god(s).
Almost all atheists accept that there may be a god. A god can not be ruled out because we have incomplete knowledge of the universe. Most atheists - like me - that actively research and discuss these things have come to the conclusion that there is also no god(s), but in Scandanavia where most people are atheists, it's just a deafault position. Similar to the situation here 500 years ago where Christianity was the default position and to not believe in god would have been nearly impossible. It's just programming. Not something that requires the taking of a position or making a statement for - just life.
You call yourself an atheist, (correct me if I'm wrong), because you have put thought into it and come to a specific conclusion. Both of us hold differing but thoughtful conclusions with, (I assume you would agree), the full knowledge that we could be wrong.
Yes, correct.
But I doubt that most church attending Christians have put much thought into it either - that is, thought outside their belief - they just believe because they've been taught to believe. Similarly people who were never taught to believe, mostly don't. If asked they probably wouldn't claim to be atheists, they'd probably say they don't know. Nevertheless, they don't believe in god and are therefore default atheists.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by GDR, posted 12-30-2015 6:26 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by GDR, posted 01-01-2016 4:32 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 223 of 478 (775755)
01-04-2016 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Phat
01-04-2016 5:22 PM


Re: Reality Is Predetermined
Doesn't your God answer prayers and therefore intervene in earthly matters?
If so, he influences future events.
Prescience is voyeuristic, but your god is an actor controlling or at least as a minimum, participating in events. He's part of the script. But who wrote the script?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Phat, posted 01-04-2016 5:22 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 331 of 478 (776128)
01-09-2016 4:26 AM
Reply to: Message 323 by Faith
01-08-2016 6:41 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Faith writes:
And I'll mention again that if you kill all the mothers and not the babies you might as well have killed them anyway
That could have come straight from an ISIS propaganda video. Look in the mirror Faith.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Faith, posted 01-08-2016 6:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 335 by Faith, posted 01-09-2016 12:06 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 338 of 478 (776151)
01-09-2016 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 335 by Faith
01-09-2016 12:06 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Faith writes:
Oh politically correct poppycock.
Murdering babies is politically incorrect? Most people would say that murdering a baby is the worst crime imaginable - a unequivocal moral wrong.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by Faith, posted 01-09-2016 12:06 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by Faith, posted 01-09-2016 12:56 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 346 of 478 (776160)
01-09-2016 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by Faith
01-09-2016 12:56 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Faith writes:
Perhaps you misunderstood me? What I thought I was saying was that killing the mothers is already killing the babies.
It was your accusation that I'm like ISIS that I was objecting to, comparing an event in the past with their current murderous outrages.
But Faith, it was as wrong then as it is now - all that's changed is that WE know better than the fictional god that both religions invented - and you still revere.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Faith, posted 01-09-2016 12:56 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 351 by Faith, posted 01-09-2016 7:56 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 353 of 478 (776215)
01-10-2016 4:12 AM
Reply to: Message 351 by Faith
01-09-2016 7:56 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Faith writes:
Your source? You've consulted the annals of the ancient empires and heathen tribes?
Woah! If some ancient tribe somewhere thought it ok to murder all its children randomly that would be ok by you and your god?
And how do the supposed values of this imaginary heathen tribe apply here? It's your god's own actions we're talking about.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by Faith, posted 01-09-2016 7:56 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by Faith, posted 01-10-2016 11:25 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 356 of 478 (776230)
01-10-2016 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 354 by Faith
01-10-2016 11:25 AM


Re: misrepresentation
Faith writes:
I was answering the claim that it was wrong then too.
Murdering children is always wrong Faith - that's pretty basic, even for a 'christian'.
I have the impression that it was a normal part of war. I'm not talking about "values" I'm talking about practice.
So when I said 'wrong' you thought I meant a poor war strategy?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by Faith, posted 01-10-2016 11:25 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by Faith, posted 01-10-2016 3:16 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 358 of 478 (776234)
01-10-2016 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by Faith
01-10-2016 3:16 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Faith writes:
Can't wait to see what other way you'll manage to twist my meaning.
No need to, your own words say it.
Faith writes:
As for "what the babies did" to deserve punishment, there is a concept of corporate guilt involved which means many of the tribe may not have "done" anything in particular to deserve the punishment. And I'll mention again that if you kill all the mothers and not the babies you might as well have killed them anyway.
You're defending the indefenisble.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by Faith, posted 01-10-2016 3:16 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by Faith, posted 01-10-2016 5:05 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 360 of 478 (776237)
01-10-2016 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 359 by Faith
01-10-2016 5:05 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Faith writes:
but for some reason I'm supposed to think God has no right to do as He pleases in His own creation.
Yes, if you have any sense of morality, then you do. Granted he shows no sense of proportion or priorities in making 'thou shalt not kill' only his 6th commandment, but it's there on the list.
we hear of it in the Bible but for some reason I'm supposed to think God has no right to do as He pleases in His own creation. I defend God's right to enact judgment according to His own analysis of the situation and you make a big moral issue of it,
Yes, I'm weird like that, I regard the mass killing of innocent women and children a big moral issue. You apparently don't.
Not a happy prospect I would think.
Not a happy prospect at all Faith, no. Should the kind of god you believe in actually exist, he's a random, malicious pychopath and if you think you're safe by bowing down and worshipping him you're in for a bigger surprise than I am.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by Faith, posted 01-10-2016 5:05 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by Faith, posted 01-10-2016 7:26 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 368 of 478 (776257)
01-11-2016 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 361 by Faith
01-10-2016 7:26 PM


Re: misrepresentation
Faith writes:
No more avoid making the debate personal, the whole thing is personal. I'm evil, or need psychiatric "help" for being a believer in the God of the Bible, period, anything I say to defend the Bible is scorned, and by extension all Bible inerrancy Christians are just as evil. Christians who behead no one, who try as well as we can to love our neighbors even against such provocations as these and so on.
I'm calling the murder of children by your God evil Faith, not you. Neither have I said anything about you needing psychiatric help. You're deflecting to avoid the difficulty of reconciling such evil acts with a loving god.
It's such things that have led most Christians to set inerrancy aside and reform their religion, a process that has not yet happened with the Koran. You see why we make the connection? And the dangers of believing these horrible stories?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by Faith, posted 01-10-2016 7:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by Faith, posted 01-11-2016 3:47 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 370 of 478 (776259)
01-11-2016 4:07 AM
Reply to: Message 369 by Faith
01-11-2016 3:47 AM


Re: misrepresentation
Faith writes:
....the Bible has inspired nothing but constructive peaceable actions in the world.
Oh please Faith, now you're denying the entire history of Christianity.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by Faith, posted 01-11-2016 3:47 AM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 371 of 478 (776260)
01-11-2016 6:30 AM
Reply to: Message 369 by Faith
01-11-2016 3:47 AM


Re: misrepresentation
Faith writes:
There is no "danger" whatever in believing the Old Testament and you have no evidence of such a danger, it's all invented by emotional outrage. YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. In two thousand years I would bet that NOT ONE SINGLE TRUE BIBLE BELIEVER HAS EVER BEEN MOTIVATED TO DO VIOLENCE OR HARM TO ANYONE BECAUSE OF THE HISTORICAL INCIDENTS IN THE O.T. THAT ARE EXERCISING YOU. This is a ridiculous trumped-up set of lies and I don't know why it's so easy for people to fall into it.
As usual you're in denial of obvious truths.
Below is a fairly balanced wiki on historical Christian violence. Like most religions, Christianity and the bible has been used as the justification for many, many violent acts. This is not a matter of controversy, but history. Please note that I'm not saying that Christianity or you are evil, I'm saying that because the bible contains many acts of atrocities and genocides sanctioned by or carried out by its god, like the Koran, it has been used to justify human atrocities. This inerrancy nonsense is a very dangerous and wrong concept.
Christianity and violence - Wikipedia

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by Faith, posted 01-11-2016 3:47 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by Faith, posted 01-11-2016 11:01 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 377 of 478 (776282)
01-11-2016 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 374 by Faith
01-11-2016 11:01 AM


Re: Christian? violence
Faith writes:
In short the article is predominantly about Catholic violence, not Christian violence.
Just like you don't get to have a personal definition of a Muslim, you don't get to define Christian. There are 1.2bn Catholics in the world and they are defined as Christians whether you like it or not. They use the same book which contains the same atrocities.
The history of the Catholic Church begins with the teachings of Jesus Christ, who lived and preached in the 1st century AD in the province of Judea of the Roman Empire. The contemporary Catholic Church says that it is the continuation of the early Christian community established by Jesus.
History of the Catholic Church - Wikipedia

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by Faith, posted 01-11-2016 11:01 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 383 by Faith, posted 01-12-2016 10:45 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 408 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-12-2016 6:14 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 380 of 478 (776287)
01-11-2016 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 378 by kbertsche
01-11-2016 12:55 PM


Re: YYes Re: misrepresentation
KB writes:
genocidal commands were given for only a few isolated case
That's supposed to be a defence? "I only committed genocide a few time, m'lud"
Well thank god (sic) for that.
Btw 1) is not the atheist positin - the atheist position is that the Bible is man-made myth and the cruelties and inconsistencies show that it was a product of its time.
And 4) 'extenuating circumstances' necessitating genocide and the murder of innocents? This is god you're talking about. You know the guy that can do anything? Including not killing everything on the planet from time to time on a whim.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by kbertsche, posted 01-11-2016 12:55 PM kbertsche has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 381 by jar, posted 01-11-2016 1:47 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 390 of 478 (776350)
01-12-2016 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 383 by Faith
01-12-2016 10:45 AM


Re: Christian? violence
Faith writes:
Yes, I can't very well expect you to care about the fact that they aren't,
No Faith, you can't expect me to care that YOU say they aren't when the rest of the world says they are. And because they obviously are. You're just yet another fundamentalist in a minority sect claiming to know the one true way and despising the other true ways.
During the periods of the Crusades and the various Inquisitions they DIDN'T use that book.
Of course they did, it was holy war and the same book.
However, the point here is that the BIBLE didn't much inform anything they did after Constantine, their actions were a fulfillment of pagan ideology backed by state power.
And the bible, the book of Holy War.
The Lord is a man of war. Exodus 15:3
The LORD hath sworn that the LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation. Exodus 17:16, Deuteronomy 25:19
And the LORD said unto Moses, Fear him not: for I have delivered him into thy hand, and all his people ... So they smote him, and his sons, and all his people, until there was none left him alive: and they possessed his land. Numbers 21:34-35
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites ... And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones ... And they burnt all their cities....
And Moses was wroth with the officers ... And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. Numbers 31:1-18
And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain: Deuteronomy 2:33-34
And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them. Deuteronomy 7:2, 7:16
If thou shalt hear say ... Certain men ... saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known ... Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. Deuteronomy 13:12-15
When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it ... And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women ... shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee. ... But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: But thou shalt utterly destroy them ... as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee. Deuteronomy 20:10-17
And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword. Joshua 6:21
So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. Joshua 10:40
For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses. Joshua 11:20
Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. 1 Samuel 15:2-3
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Psalm 2:8-9
He teacheth my hands to war. Psalm 18:34
That thy foot may be dipped in the blood of thine enemies, and the tongue of thy dogs in the same. Psalm 68:23
Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight: Psalm 144:1
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34
He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by Faith, posted 01-12-2016 10:45 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 392 by Faith, posted 01-12-2016 11:50 AM Tangle has not replied

  
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