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Author Topic:   Discussion of Phylogenetic Methods
Coyote
Member (Idle past 364 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 63 of 288 (795900)
12-18-2016 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by vaporwave
12-18-2016 3:38 PM


Re: Introduction
The evolutionist will assume whatever he needs in order to reconcile the theory.

You have this backwards.

Scientists of all kinds work from data to theory. If new or old data does not fit the theory, then the theory has to be modified or discarded.

Creationists, on the other hand, work from belief. If old or new data does not fit the belief, then that data has to be denied, misrepresented, or ignored.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by vaporwave, posted 12-18-2016 3:38 PM vaporwave has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 364 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 65 of 288 (795902)
12-18-2016 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by vaporwave
12-18-2016 4:46 PM


Re: Introduction
Look at the related field of Origin of Life studies to get some inkling of the metaphysical commitment. It doesn't matter how much the various OoL theories may struggle, the general academic community knows with complete certainty that it happened completely naturally somehow.

And the various religious communities know with complete certainty that it was a result of supernatural forces.

So?

In any case, origin of life studies are not evolution--completely different fields.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by vaporwave, posted 12-18-2016 4:46 PM vaporwave has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 364 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 91 of 288 (795939)
12-19-2016 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by vaporwave
12-19-2016 7:15 PM


Re: The purpose of phylogenetics
Animals that share similar anatomical systems tend to share similar genetic organization of that anatomy.

Not so.

There are three groups of humans with high altitude adaptations, and each uses a different method.

You can find the details here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/...aptation_in_humans#Genetic_basis

Also, human skin color is very dark among three (or four) different groups, but those groups are not closely related:

https://en.wikipedia.org/...ark_skin#Geographic_distribution

The primary factor is intensity of UV radiation.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by vaporwave, posted 12-19-2016 7:15 PM vaporwave has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 364 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 154 of 288 (796030)
12-21-2016 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by jar
12-21-2016 9:36 AM


Re: the silence from the lambs
Is there some reason no Creationist has ever been able to present a model, mechanism, plan, procedure, method or theory that explains the reality that is seen?

Of course there's a creationist model!

POOF!

That's it! Pretty simple, eh?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by jar, posted 12-21-2016 9:36 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by jar, posted 12-21-2016 10:05 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 364 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 197 of 288 (796083)
12-21-2016 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by JonF
12-21-2016 8:05 PM


Re: The purpose of science
JonF writes:

Granny writes:

It's almost as if you don't realise that the stuff you write is available to check

I've found that trait to be fairly common among creationists. Yet this was a particularly egregious example.


Creationists work from belief, which is not amenable to fact checking--its belief, after all. That's their approach, and if a particular sect has a major disagreement within its ranks there is most likely going to be a split, resulting in still another sect! They have to split, as there is no way to evaluate the evidence.

Not surprisingly they bring that approach to websites such as this, inhabited by many folks who do science and whose livelihood depends on fact checking! To be wrong in a publication is, for STEM scientists, a major embarrassment, and to be wrong several times could end a career.

Yet when creationists show up here they expect their belief-based approach, usually accompanied by little knowledge of science and way too much reliance on scripture and dogma, to convince everyone else that they have the one and only TRVTH.

And the "magic bullet" that is going to slay the evil evolution dragon is almost certainly one that has been tried unsuccessfully many times before. Some of them have been tried so often that they are considered PRATTs, or Points Refuted a Thousand Times. The Index to Creationist Claims has even numbered and organized the failed creationist claims by subject matter!

So, no. We are not likely to be impressed by the latest "magic bullet" to make the rounds of the interwebs...


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by JonF, posted 12-21-2016 8:05 PM JonF has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 364 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 222 of 288 (796126)
12-22-2016 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by vaporwave
12-22-2016 4:12 PM


Re: The purpose of science
Evolutionists observe character traits and sequence data and have to make evolutionary assumptions or inferences about them, at times resulting in a great deal of controversy between themselves.

The theory of evolution is a theory, rather than an assumption, hypothesis, or guess, because it fits the definition of a theory: it is the single best explanation for a given set of facts, it is not contradicted by any relevant facts, and it has withstood the test of time and made successful predictions.

When scientists (not evolutionists*) observe things that fit with the theory of evolution, they would be remarkably poor scientists if they jumped, out of the blue, to some other assumption, hypothesis or guess--as you presumably would have them do. When the theory of evolution explains the facts, why try to bring in creationism? (Answer--belief gets in the way of learning.)

* Whenever a poster on one of these websites starts discussing "evolutionists" we know he's a full-blown creationist. We can generally assume 1) a lack of scientific training and rigor, and 2) beliefs are favored over evidence.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by vaporwave, posted 12-22-2016 4:12 PM vaporwave has not yet responded

  
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