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Author Topic:   Discussion of Phylogenetic Methods
Tangle
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Posts: 7066
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 29 of 288 (795855)
12-18-2016 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by vaporwave
12-18-2016 9:47 AM


Re: Introduction
vaporwave writes:

Phylogenetics asks: IF common ancestry is true, what is the most likely evolutionary relationship between living things?

Not true. You have it entirely the wrong way around.

The ToE makes the prediction that if it is true, all organisms will have common ancestry. This prediction is entirely falsifiable. For example, taxomic trees were built based on the phyiscal features and functionalities of organisms and their assumed relationships. DNA came along and could have completely debunked the entire concept, yet it confirmed it.

If you can find a organism without an ancestor, you win. If you find a bunch of creatures using different polypeptides to the rest of 'creation' you win. If you can find a modern mammal in the fossil record alongside dinosaurs, you win.

We've been waiting for 150 years.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by vaporwave, posted 12-18-2016 9:47 AM vaporwave has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 12-18-2016 12:48 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 35 by vaporwave, posted 12-18-2016 1:26 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7066
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 32 of 288 (795860)
12-18-2016 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
12-18-2016 12:48 PM


Re: Introduction
jar writes:

Not too sure about that.

Corrected, thanks.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 12-18-2016 12:48 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7066
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 40 of 288 (795868)
12-18-2016 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by vaporwave
12-18-2016 1:26 PM


Re: Introduction
vaporwave writes:

You trick yourself into pretending the core assumption of common ancestry isn't still there begging the question.

Nope. It makes a prediction, and I've given you a few ways to prove it wrong. Hard, evidence-based factual ways to prove common descent wrong. Your lot have had 150 years to do it - still nothing but waffle on forums.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by vaporwave, posted 12-18-2016 1:26 PM vaporwave has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7066
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 60 of 288 (795896)
12-18-2016 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by vaporwave
12-18-2016 6:15 PM


Re: More nonsense.
vaporwave writes:

I don't want to get off-topic from phylogenetics here. I'm just offering it as an example of the type of commitment someone may hold to an evolutionary style worldview.

Do you accept that common descent is falsifiable?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by vaporwave, posted 12-18-2016 6:15 PM vaporwave has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by vaporwave, posted 12-19-2016 7:44 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7066
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 68 of 288 (795911)
12-19-2016 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by vaporwave
12-19-2016 7:44 AM


Re: More nonsense.
vaporwave writes:

Yes

So why don't you find the evidence to disprove it instead of all this pseudo-philosophical waffle you're dolling out? This is not some esoteric, logic-based problem to be solved purely by reading websites and thinking hard - it's evidence based.

The ToE stands or falls on it's empirical evidence, not on a bunch of wordy argument. It can be disproved, your side has had a century and a half to produce the damning evidence against - the theory even tells you where to look for it - but you have produced absolutely nothing, just vapor.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by vaporwave, posted 12-19-2016 7:44 AM vaporwave has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7066
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 80 of 288 (795928)
12-19-2016 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by caffeine
12-19-2016 4:20 PM


Re: The purpose of phylogenetics
caffeine writes:

Several of you have criticised vaporwave for this point, but it strikes me that on this point he is entirely correct.

One of the good things about this forum is that people get picked up and corrected on facts and bad argument - regardless of sides. Though I have to say, I see less of it on the creo side, just disagreement.

And you're at least mostly correct on this point. Science considers evolution settled so it's no longer concerned with proving it, it rightly wonders about how the most recent developments fit with it. So when taxonomy based almost entirely on form met DNA, errors were found and corrected. But molecular biology could have totally trashed the entire tree - it didn't, it confirmed it in spades.

The phylogenetic tree IS a massive support for the ToE, the fact that science now takes it for granted is not an argument against it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by caffeine, posted 12-19-2016 4:20 PM caffeine has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by vaporwave, posted 12-19-2016 6:11 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7066
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 84 of 288 (795932)
12-19-2016 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by vaporwave
12-19-2016 6:11 PM


Re: The purpose of phylogenetics
vaporwave writes:


What he's saying is that because DNA didn't group giraffes with turtles instead of other mammals, Common Ancestry was totally vindicated.

I guess we'll have to wait and see what caffeine says he's saying, but I can't make any sense out of that sentence.

Neither taxonomy, nor DNA groups turtles with mammals. But without common descent there's no reason for DNA and form based taxonomy to agree on their classification. Molecular biology confirmed common descent.

Evolutionists really set the bar high.

There is no bar.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by vaporwave, posted 12-19-2016 6:11 PM vaporwave has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by vaporwave, posted 12-19-2016 7:30 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7066
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 92 of 288 (795947)
12-20-2016 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by vaporwave
12-19-2016 7:30 PM


Re: The purpose of phylogenetics
vaporwave writes:

Right, and to an evolutionist this is vindication of the theory.

Right, you see when two different methods of organising groups into sets produce the same result, it strengthens the idea that the sets are correct. Had molecular biology produced a different result, there would have been a lot of head scratching and you might have the beginnings of an argument. As it is, you're buggered.

Now how are you getting on disproving the ToE with evidence instead of words?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by vaporwave, posted 12-19-2016 7:30 PM vaporwave has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by vaporwave, posted 12-20-2016 6:59 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7066
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 102 of 288 (795960)
12-20-2016 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by vaporwave
12-20-2016 6:59 AM


Re: The purpose of phylogenetics
vaporwave writes:

The "sets are correct" ? What does that mean?

It means that common descent has been shown by two different and distinct methods. Species that look related at a level of physical sructure have been shown to be related at a molecular level too. And this relationship is demonstrable over time. The molecular analysis also reveals when species diverged.

It seems a lot of your case hinges on this claim.

It does, or rather it did - had DNA not supported the theory, it would have been devastating for it. But it did. You lose.

Still no actual evidence I see, you're still dicking about with error-ridden pseudologic.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by vaporwave, posted 12-20-2016 6:59 AM vaporwave has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by vaporwave, posted 12-20-2016 9:12 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7066
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 103 of 288 (795961)
12-20-2016 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by vaporwave
12-20-2016 8:31 AM


Re: The purpose of science
vaporwave writes:

If you had no concept of evolutionary relationships and furthermore knew absolutely nothing about internal anatomy and saw a dog, a cat, and a turtle. Which ones would you guess to be more similar to each other if you dissected them?

And that child, is how it all began 150 years ago. And here you are 150 years later still making the same mistakes.

You realise that relatedness is not restricted to modern animals? Descent means that relationship can be derived backwards in time through the fossil record.

Now, you've admitted that common descent is falsifyable, why then haven't you falsifyed it?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by vaporwave, posted 12-20-2016 8:31 AM vaporwave has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7066
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 114 of 288 (795973)
12-20-2016 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by vaporwave
12-20-2016 9:12 AM


Re: The purpose of phylogenetics
vaporwave writes:

Darn...

It's kind of obvious, but hey ho.

Suppose this God guy designed every single organism on the planet individually, he could just as easily mix and match all sorts of components from all sorts of models - just like car manufacturers. In that case the eye of a gibbon could be made from molecules he used for the eye of a squid - maybe with a tweak here and there. Of course, what you don't find are things like teats on turtles, 'cos we know that teats hadn't been invented for reptiles - they came later whem mammals came along Just like you don't find autoparking on a 1955 Ford.

For DNA itself, the rules of base pairing (or nucleotide pairing) are:

A with T: the purine adenine (A) always pairs with the pyrimidine thymine (T)
C with G: the pyrimidine cytosine (C) always pairs with the purine guanine (G)

But uracil also pairs with adenine, so why not use that combo in, say cows and only cows, just for a laugh. That'll screw those evil evolutionist up.

My apologies to real molecular biologists.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by vaporwave, posted 12-20-2016 9:12 AM vaporwave has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Taq, posted 12-20-2016 11:00 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7066
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 190 of 288 (796075)
12-21-2016 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by vaporwave
12-21-2016 5:28 PM


Re: The purpose of science
Vaporwave writes:

Let the record show that the evolutionists here were the first to start talking about gods and designers in this discussion. (as usual)

I'm considering retrieving my opinion of you from the compost heap I threw it on last week.

There appears to be the faint possibility that we have a unicorn amongst us - someone who doesn't believe in god/s or creationism yet also doesn't accept evolution. Is this you? Or is that another question you can't answer - like where is the evidence disproving common descent?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by vaporwave, posted 12-21-2016 5:28 PM vaporwave has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7066
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 238 of 288 (796176)
12-24-2016 3:35 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by Dr Adequate
12-23-2016 6:14 PM


Re: templates and peripheral features
Dr. A writes:

Are you going to answer my question? "Which animal, where on the tree of life?"

I'll sure he'll get round to that just after he's provided evidence against common descent and just before he confirms he not a creationist.

Like never. He prefers waffle to fact.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-23-2016 6:14 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7066
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 240 of 288 (796178)
12-24-2016 5:49 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by vaporwave
12-24-2016 5:11 AM


Re: templates and peripheral features
vaporwave writes:

The common ancestry story can change significantly if it is discovered an animal group's position on the tree of life needs to be changed.

And you do understand that when your god gave us this jigsaw puzzle to figure out he didn't provide the picture on the box lid, left 90% of the parts out and scattered the rest across and inside the globe creating an almost never ending treasure hunt?

Gonna help with those other questions yet?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by vaporwave, posted 12-24-2016 5:11 AM vaporwave has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7066
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 265 of 288 (796380)
12-29-2016 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by vaporwave
12-29-2016 7:39 AM


Re: we have motive (survival) means (evolution) and opportunity (proximity)
vaporware writes:

But nested hierarchies themselves are not evidence for evolution. They may be a requirement of evolution, but that doesn't mean they explicitly point to evolution.

This is perverse.

If nested hierarchies are a requirement for evolution, and we find that without exception nested heirarchies exist in all biological systems, then I'd say that's smoking gun evidence.

Had we not found hierarchies we wouldn't find evolution. You are attempting to find a tautology - but you can't can you? The two must co-exist for either to be true. ToE requires descent, descent requires nested hierarchies. The ToE is just a way of describing what happens and has happened in nature. (And remarkably, how.)

Any evidence of your own yet? Want to explain how creationism works?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by vaporwave, posted 12-29-2016 7:39 AM vaporwave has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by jar, posted 12-29-2016 12:16 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
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