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Author Topic:   Discussion of Phylogenetic Methods
JonF
Member (Idle past 158 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 196 of 288 (796081)
12-21-2016 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Granny Magda
12-21-2016 7:59 PM


Re: The purpose of science
It's almost as if you don't realise that the stuff you write is available to check
I've found that trait to be fairly common among creationists. Yet this was a particularly egregious example.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Granny Magda, posted 12-21-2016 7:59 PM Granny Magda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Coyote, posted 12-21-2016 9:33 PM JonF has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 158 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 250 of 288 (796282)
12-28-2016 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by vaporwave
12-28-2016 7:09 AM


Re: we have motive (survival) means (evolution) and opportunity (proximity)
Evolution predicted a nested hierarchy phylogeny, but not a specific phylogeny. Any nested hierarchy phylogeny is a very unlikely event, and demands explanation.

This message is a reply to:
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JonF
Member (Idle past 158 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 259 of 288 (796362)
12-29-2016 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by vaporwave
12-29-2016 7:39 AM


Re: we have motive (survival) means (evolution) and opportunity (proximity)
And if common ancestry could potentially explain trillions of different nested hierarchies, then how strong of a theory is it really that it can explain one of them?
Very strong. There are octillions to the octillionth power of possible patterns. The number of possible nested hierarchies is an infinitesimal fraction of the total. Nested hierarchies do not arise by chance. They are the result of a process.
Common ancestry explains why such a pattern \[b\]must\[b\] arise.
Got any other explanation that \[b\]must\[b\] produce a nested hierarchy? GOrt any other explanation that can be reasonably expected to produce a nested hierarchy?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by vaporwave, posted 12-29-2016 7:39 AM vaporwave has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by vaporwave, posted 12-30-2016 7:08 AM JonF has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 158 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 269 of 288 (796445)
12-30-2016 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by vaporwave
12-30-2016 7:08 AM


Re: we have motive (survival) means (evolution) and opportunity (proximity)
There are octillions to the octillionth power of possible patterns. The number of possible nested hierarchies is an infinitesimal fraction of the total. Nested hierarchies do not arise by chance. They are the result of a process.
Another invocation of the hypothetical 'random-creature-generator' - (If not evolution, then we should expect the pattern of life to look like spaghetti thrown against the wall)
If that's the bizarre comparison you need to draw to make common ancestry seem more likely, then have at it.
I notice you failed to address the point; common ancestry requires a nested hierarchy. Nobody has proposed any other process that requires a nested hierarchy. If some other process produced what we see why did it produce a nested hierarchy instead of the almost innumerable other possibilities?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by vaporwave, posted 12-30-2016 7:08 AM vaporwave has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by vaporwave, posted 12-30-2016 11:22 AM JonF has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 158 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 270 of 288 (796446)
12-30-2016 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by vaporwave
12-30-2016 7:18 AM


Re: we have motive (survival) means (evolution) and opportunity (proximity)
So footprints showing up 10-20 million years before the limbs that would make them is not out of order. You have a strange definition of order.
False premise. Footprints similar to Tiktallik's showing up 10-20 million years before the Tiktalliks we've found is not prima facie out of order. Characteristics can easily persist for many millions of years.
E.g. if we found a footprint of an American Alligator 150 million years old, and we see a footprint made by an American Alligator today, they would be the same. Are they out of order?

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JonF
Member (Idle past 158 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 277 of 288 (796474)
12-30-2016 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by vaporwave
12-30-2016 8:57 AM


Re: we have motive (survival) means (evolution) and opportunity (proximity)
For example, an animal group with an even mix of bird and mammal traits would not necessarily violate a nested hierarchy, it would only require modeling the branches of the tree of life accordingly. Mammals and birds would now be placed much closer. Their relationship to dinosaurs would also likely be changed.
Interesting claim. Let's see your evidence that you can do that and maintain a nested hierarchy.
(Hint: youy can't. E.g. Birds don't have hair. Mammals don't have flow-through lungs. There are many more such characteristics.)
So yes, animals must fall into "a" nested hierarchy, but this is a very soft criteria to meet.
On the contrary, it's a very difficult criterion to meet.
So, demonstrate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by vaporwave, posted 12-30-2016 8:57 AM vaporwave has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 158 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 278 of 288 (796476)
12-30-2016 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 274 by vaporwave
12-30-2016 11:22 AM


Re: we have motive (survival) means (evolution) and opportunity (proximity)
Nested hierarchies are an artifact of design. Human designers create nested hierarchies constantly without even thinking about it.
No, human designers do not create nested hierarchies (of any significant numbers of items) because they are free to "cross-pollinate" characteristics from one item to an unrelated item.
A nested hierarchy such as life's has absolutely no duplication of labels. All labels are unique.
I challenge you to produce a nested hierarchy of, say two dozen man-made objects of your choice with at least four levels that does not duplicate labels or cannot be easily shown to require duplicate labels to be extended.
Many have tried.
All have failed.
Here's an example. It does not duplicate labels, but it does require duplicating labels to extend it significantly. Can you see why?
Your argument is only convincing if you assume the "random-creature-generator" absent of evolution, whereby you then invoke the "infinite possibilities" aspect, no one more likely then the other.
Nobody has claimed a random uniformly distributed "creature generator". But we have observed a fact; there are many possibilities of how life could be organized that are not a single nested hierarchy. That fact screams for explanation. Got one? Why do we see what we see?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by vaporwave, posted 12-30-2016 11:22 AM vaporwave has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by vaporwave, posted 12-30-2016 1:06 PM JonF has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 158 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 281 of 288 (796495)
12-30-2016 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by vaporwave
12-30-2016 1:06 PM


Re: we have motive (survival) means (evolution) and opportunity (proximity)
So what.. for argument's sake let's say you find "cross-pollinated" violations, it's still true that designed traits tend to fall into nested hierarchies, especially models that are based off small variations of a basic design.
Let's see them. With, of course, significant variation between the items.
Maybe only 90% of the traits can be arranged in this hierarchy. That's still a dominant pattern of nested groupings
But not a nested hierarchy.

This message is a reply to:
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