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Author Topic:   2014 was hotter than 1998. 2015 data in yet?
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8971
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 196 of 357 (777294)
01-28-2016 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Jon
01-28-2016 4:45 PM


How do we know?
How do you know?

You can't even tell me how much FF we'd have to burn to get to the 216 feet.

It doesn't matter how much it takes. We know, from past times in earth's history that burning all of it is too much.

So we know that if we keep going this way the ice will melt. It is melting now.

What I don't know is how long it will take. And until we know that you should be very, very concerned. Unless of course you are absolutely sure it won't be in 30 years and you don't give a shit about the next generations to follow us.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Jon, posted 01-28-2016 4:45 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Jon, posted 01-28-2016 8:47 PM NosyNed has taken no action
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 197 of 357 (777307)
01-28-2016 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by NosyNed
01-28-2016 5:48 PM


Re: How do we know?
Unless of course you are absolutely sure it won't be in 30 years...

I am absolutely sure of that. And you should be too.

... and you don't give a shit about the next generations to follow us.

I care a great deal for the future generation and for the one after it and the one after that and all of them to come.

That is why I want to do whatever it takes to keep the lights on in the hospitals, the tractors running through the fields, the rain off our heads, and all the other things that will make sure the future generations inherit a world with less sickness, more food, and the best possible quality of life we can give them.

If that requires fossil fuels, that requires fossil fuels. But maybe someone in this thread will be able to show us how it can happen without them.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by NosyNed, posted 01-28-2016 5:48 PM NosyNed has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-28-2016 10:54 PM Jon has taken no action
 Message 200 by RAZD, posted 01-29-2016 7:57 AM Jon has replied

  
LamarkNewAge 
Suspended Member (Idle past 15 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 198 of 357 (777310)
01-28-2016 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Jon
01-28-2016 8:47 PM


Wind and solar make fossil fuels cheaper.
They reduce demand.

Makes the supply of fossil fuels much cheaper and more accessible.

Fossil fuels fall in price when the supply rises relative to the demand.

Or the demand falls relative to the supply.

Solar & wind makes fossil fuels more fluent of an asset to society. Before the artificial tightening by the (big oil) manipulators.

EDIT fossil fuels aren't a reliable source of energy. That's why our (now in the past) newer power plants had to stop using oil. Natural gas plants will prove to be just as unreliable with viscious price swings UP UP UP as we build more and more plants.

Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 681 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 199 of 357 (777331)
01-29-2016 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by NosyNed
01-28-2016 5:48 PM


Re: How do we know?
It doesn't matter how much it takes. We know, from past times in earth's history that burning all of it is too much.

This reminds me of the joke:

Man asks woman, "would you sleep with me for a million dollars?"

Woman replies, "yes"

Man asks, "would you sleep with me for $50?"

Woman replies, "No way, what do you take me for, a prostitute???"

Man says, "we've already established that, we are just negotiating the price."

Somewhere between burning all the remaining fossil fuel and melting all the ice, and leaving the fossil fuels in the ground and stopping the ice melting is where we will end up -- we are just negotiating what that level of melting is acceptable.

One of the problems I have is that long before all the ice is melted there will be irreversible changes to the entire earth ecosystem network, the acidification of lakes, rivers, bays and oceans and the loss of basal food chain organisms.

Throwing energy at these problems won't solve them.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by NosyNed, posted 01-28-2016 5:48 PM NosyNed has taken no action

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 681 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(3)
Message 200 of 357 (777332)
01-29-2016 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by Jon
01-28-2016 8:47 PM


Re: How do we know?
If that requires fossil fuels, that requires fossil fuels. But maybe someone in this thread will be able to show us how it can happen without them.

and if fossil fuels are the problem causing destruction of the web of life to such an extent that it prevents making "sure the future generations inherit a world with less sickness, more food, and the best possible quality of life we can give them" ?

It will take a concerted, committed social and scientific effort around the world to develop alternative energies to the level needed and to reduce wasteful use of the energy we do use.

Electric vehicles don't reduce the use of energy, they are just a way of using the energy in a portable format, just as fossil fuel vehicles are a portable format for using energy. But cutting down the amount used is possible with (electric) mass transit, more efficient vehicles and more use of bicycles and pedestrian systems. Things as simple as changing lightbulbs to LEDs everywhere.

Creating usable energy near where it is used with wind and solar cuts down on transmission losses from grid distribution, and is most effective when peak production meets peak demand -- such as daytime office work.

Technology transformed the world in my grandfather's lifetime from a horse and buggy agrarian society to sending men to the moon, partly from just building new technologies and partly from a specific dedication to a goal, and that is what we need to invoke.

It's not going to happen by sitting back and waiting for someone to do it for you/us.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Jon, posted 01-28-2016 8:47 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Jon, posted 01-29-2016 12:32 PM RAZD has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 201 of 357 (777349)
01-29-2016 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by RAZD
01-29-2016 7:57 AM


Re: How do we know?
and if fossil fuels are the problem causing destruction of the web of life to such an extent that it prevents making "sure the future generations inherit a world with less sickness, more food, and the best possible quality of life we can give them" ?

If the use of fossil fuels is really going to cause such problems, then we should all be very sad. Because we know what a world without access to the cheap, plentiful, and reliable energy provided by fossil fuels looks like: it's the world inhabited by humanity everywhere for most of its existence and in underdeveloped societies today - a world of scarce food, death by even minor illnesses, hard and brutal labor, and short lives, where folks live at the mercy of nature waiting to die by flood, drought, and plague.

It's a world that doesn't look very good. And that's the world that happens tomorrow if we give up our fossil fuels.

Unless... unless... Is there an alternative?

It's not going to happen by sitting back and waiting for someone to do it for you/us.

Can we have a serious discussion on how it might happen? One involving evidence with real numbers and real math?

How will we get to a renewable energy world? How does it work?

We can start with the city of New York. What will it take to make it 100% renewable? (Let's focus on electricity for now.)


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by RAZD, posted 01-29-2016 7:57 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by NoNukes, posted 01-29-2016 12:52 PM Jon has replied
 Message 214 by RAZD, posted 01-30-2016 1:59 PM Jon has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 202 of 357 (777350)
01-29-2016 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Jon
01-29-2016 12:32 PM


Re: How do we know?
If the use of fossil fuels is really going to cause such problems, then we should all be very sad.

There is a level of fossil fuel utilization that can be tolerated in the long term. The problem is that we are currently way above that. In the short term, replacing significant portions of fossil fuels with alternatives, capturing CO2 and removing it from the cycle where we can, conservation, and using the fossil fuels that we must use more wisely, avoiding usage of the most polluting versions of oil and coal can substantially moderate the effects without making everyone live like a refugee.

hen we should all be very sad. Because we know what a world without access to the cheap, plentiful, and reliable energy provided by fossil fuels looks like:

We actually have no experience showing us what that would look like. The introduction of fossil fuels way back when interrupted the development and exploitation of solar based technology. We've never actually lived in a world where the alternatives replaced substantial portions of carbon burning.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Jon, posted 01-29-2016 12:32 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Jon, posted 01-29-2016 2:03 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 203 of 357 (777355)
01-29-2016 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by NoNukes
01-29-2016 12:52 PM


Re: How do we know?
We've never actually lived in a world where the alternatives replaced substantial portions of carbon burning.

I was moreso talking about a world without energy. And right now a world without fossil fuels is a world without energy.

But if we can generate the energy some other way, that's great. The question I've asked repeatedly though is: Can we? And how?

Lots of eager responses to the first part of that question.

Mostly silence on the second part.

We actually have no experience showing us what that would look like. The introduction of fossil fuels way back when interrupted the development and exploitation of solar based technology.

I'm curious as to what you mean by this.

I'm not disagreeing - yet - ; this just sounds like a history I've never heard before.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by NoNukes, posted 01-29-2016 12:52 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-29-2016 10:10 PM Jon has replied
 Message 207 by NoNukes, posted 01-29-2016 10:33 PM Jon has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 328 days)
Posts: 16112
Joined: 07-20-2006


(3)
Message 204 of 357 (777361)
01-29-2016 3:15 PM


Jon
So, Jon has yet to produce any data to support the program that he has yet to describe.

I'm not really surprised.


Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Jon, posted 01-29-2016 6:47 PM Dr Adequate has taken no action

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 205 of 357 (777366)
01-29-2016 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by Dr Adequate
01-29-2016 3:15 PM


Re: Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-29-2016 3:15 PM Dr Adequate has taken no action

  
LamarkNewAge 
Suspended Member (Idle past 15 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 206 of 357 (777377)
01-29-2016 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Jon
01-29-2016 2:03 PM


Re: How do we know?
quote:

I was moreso talking about a world without energy. And right now a world without fossil fuels is a world without energy.

Electrical cars are cheaper to "fuel up" than gas guzzlers.

Electricity isn't sourced from oil. Oil is (on average) too expensive so the electrical power plants aren't oil-fired.

Solar is competitive with coal and natural gas in many places (where about 1/3rd of Americans live).

Electrical cars can be powered by solar in places where 1/3rd of Americans live.

Coal, natural gas, oil, etc. fired plants only supply about 65% of the electricity on our grid. For every 10 watts of coal/gas/oil produced, there is 1 produced from wind and solar.

Why not simply produce 10 times more solar and wind than we do presently? And then discontinue (or decommission) the coal, natural gas, and oil plants?

It isn't exactly a "mission to the moon" to up the current wind turbine and solar panel quantity by a factor of 10.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Jon, posted 01-29-2016 2:03 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by Jon, posted 01-29-2016 11:42 PM LamarkNewAge has replied
 Message 212 by RAZD, posted 01-30-2016 11:52 AM LamarkNewAge has taken no action
 Message 218 by Jon, posted 01-31-2016 6:51 PM LamarkNewAge has taken no action

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 207 of 357 (777379)
01-29-2016 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Jon
01-29-2016 2:03 PM


Re: How do we know?
was moreso talking about a world without energy.

Yes, and you should not be talking about a world with no energy if you want to be relevant.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Jon, posted 01-29-2016 2:03 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Jon, posted 01-29-2016 11:39 PM NoNukes has seen this message

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 208 of 357 (777381)
01-29-2016 11:39 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by NoNukes
01-29-2016 10:33 PM


Re: How do we know?
You're right. I should be talking about a world with so little energy it's practically non-existent.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by NoNukes, posted 01-29-2016 10:33 PM NoNukes has seen this message

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 209 of 357 (777383)
01-29-2016 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by LamarkNewAge
01-29-2016 10:10 PM


Re: How do we know?
You're just trolling

Here as in your other thread.

Making claim after claim and running onto the next point when challenged for evidence.

You're as bad as GIA.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-29-2016 10:10 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-29-2016 11:48 PM Jon has taken no action
 Message 211 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-29-2016 11:53 PM Jon has taken no action

  
LamarkNewAge 
Suspended Member (Idle past 15 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 210 of 357 (777386)
01-29-2016 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Jon
01-29-2016 11:42 PM


Got it backwards.
[ Please, no replies to this message in this thread. If you'd like to participate in the discussion at the Did Jesus teach reincarnation? thread then please post over there. --Admin ]

I showed evidence that Jesus said John the Baptist was Elijah.

You guys can't show evidence that Paul taught a spermless incarnation of God in Mary's womb.

(and I'm not against the idea, infact it would support my argument)

(I am against saying Paul taught that Mary was impregnated by God in a spermless incarnation BECAUSE THERE IS NO EVIDENCE HE DID!)

I favor saying Jesus taught reincarnation because he plainly taught it

quote:

Oxford Dictionary of Worlds Religions
John Bowker
p.309
Elijah
....
the *gospels record speculation that John the Baptist, who wore the same clothes..., was a reincarnation of the prophet.

I back up my views, infact my views are based on evidence. The evidence comes first for me. Without the evidence, I wouldn't even have the view.

Evidence comes first for me.

You simply are not like me.

Edited by Admin, : Add moderator request to post at the correct thread.

Edited by Admin, : Add brackets around moderator request.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Jon, posted 01-29-2016 11:42 PM Jon has taken no action

  
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