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Author Topic:   The Story in the Rocks - Southwestern U.S.
Tanypteryx
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Posts: 2332
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006


(3)
Message 1 of 121 (775856)
01-05-2016 8:55 PM


I want to post some photos of geological formations from the Southwest that I have taken on trips the last few years. I would like to discuss what is known about how the rocks formed and when, and what processes acted on them between then and now, and what processes exposed them so we can see them today.

The formations in this photo are in north central Arizona along a stretch of Hwy 89, south of Navajo Bridge over the Colorado River and north of Cameron.

I think this valley may have had a number of layers volcanic ash-like material deposited that has been eroded leaving these short buttes that are composed of soft non-lithified material that almost looks like it is melting in the occasional summer rains.

(ABE: Looking in my Roadside Geology of Arizona I see this is the Chinle formation and it is volcanic ash.)

We have similar looking formations in Oregon around the John Day Fossil Beds.

We have had discussions and debate about interpreting photos in several other threads about the flood where we went down a bunch of rabbit holes arguing about minutia of lines, or shadows, that didn't help the discussion progress. I would rather not repeat that. I don't want to spend a bunch of time talking about things that are not supported by the evidence found in the rocks. I want to find out what the evidence tells us.

Geology forum please.

Edited by Tanypteryx, : Added 2 more image

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Tiny code fix.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by edge, posted 01-06-2016 6:09 PM Tanypteryx has responded
 Message 84 by edge, posted 04-09-2016 2:39 PM Tanypteryx has responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2332
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006


Message 4 of 121 (775930)
01-06-2016 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by edge
01-06-2016 6:09 PM


These formations are indeed volcanic ash, now altered to smectite clays, such as the commonly known bentonite. It makes devilish roads and trails, undrivable with the least amount of rain. Sticks to everything.

I see this in quite a few places in eastern Oregon. Dirt roads that look like they should stay firm even in rain get super-soft and sticky.

with bright colors and almost a layered, cotton-candy type of appearance.

When I was a kid I thought these distinctively shaped mounds were material that had been somehow extruded from below. Later, when I saw buttes with flat tops I realized that they were really the last remnants of a soft layer that was almost melting away. The colors are sometimes very striking.

It seems to me that the way these formations erode shows what the strata of the Southwest would all look like if it was deposited by a flood only a few thousand years ago.

Is this material, bentonite, good for radiometric dating?

Are there components of the material that are water soluble?

Is there a way to tell if these deposits occurred in water or on dry land?


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


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 Message 3 by edge, posted 01-06-2016 6:09 PM edge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by edge, posted 01-07-2016 7:39 PM Tanypteryx has responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2332
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006


Message 6 of 121 (776035)
01-07-2016 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by edge
01-07-2016 7:39 PM


Thanks for the answers.

I wrenched my back on Tuesday and I am not able to drive over to my lab where my desktop computer that I use for images and almost all of my internet stuff is, so I may not get much posting done for a few days.

It is amazing that I was moving fine and then just twisted wrong and suddenly every movement is excruciating. Oh well, maybe I casn catch up on some reading.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by edge, posted 01-07-2016 7:39 PM edge has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2332
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006


Message 7 of 121 (777299)
01-28-2016 6:23 PM


The Kayenta Formation & Dinosaur Tracks
A few miles west of the Chinle formation volcanic ash mounds I saw bipedal dinosaur tracks in the once soft mud of these 200 million-year-old Mesozoic rocks.

There are a number of Navajo guides who will accompany you around the area and "highlight" the tracks with a squirt water bottle. There were also some exposed bones that were probably misidentified. Their 2 favorites were Tyrannosaurus and Triceratops for the tracks as well.

I think they told me these were eggs but I have some doubts.

The Jurassic Kayenta formation is younger than the Triassic Chinle formation.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-28-2016 10:51 PM Tanypteryx has responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2332
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006


Message 9 of 121 (777311)
01-28-2016 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Dr Adequate
01-28-2016 10:51 PM


Re: The Kayenta Formation & Dinosaur Tracks
I think they told me these were eggs but I have some doubts.

They're some sort of nodule, I'm fairly sure.

That way what I thought also.

There was a time many years ago when I took chips from rocks that I found and analyzed them on an X-ray powder diffraction system at work. I could ID compounds and figure out what minerals were present. It was good practice trying to ID what I had.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-28-2016 10:51 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2332
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006


(1)
Message 13 of 121 (779293)
03-02-2016 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by edge
02-01-2016 7:53 PM


A couple miles to the north of the dinosaur footprints there are exposed, eroding, remains of the Navajo Sandstone that show nice cross-bedding patterns of ancient sand dunes.

I do not understand the process involved with the lithification of sand dunes that preserves the cross-bedding pattern.

And here is a different type exposure just a mile south of those boulders.

The Navajo Sandstone is the same layer that is exposed to erosion many miles to the west in Snow Canyon, just north od St. George, Utah.

According to Geology of the American Southwest, by W. Scott Baldridge, the Navajo Sandstone is Jurrasic, deposited 144-206 million years ago and overlays the older Kayenta Formation.

quote:
Together with the with the laterally equivalent Nugget and Aztec Sandstones, these formations comprise one of the largest ancient sand dune deposits preserved on Earth, stretching over an area of more than 150,000 km^2.

.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by edge, posted 02-01-2016 7:53 PM edge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by edge, posted 03-03-2016 11:33 AM Tanypteryx has responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2332
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006


Message 16 of 121 (779341)
03-03-2016 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Dr Adequate
03-03-2016 12:30 PM


He said that sandstone could be produced by compaction alone, and adduced the fact that cannonballs shot at sandbags produced sandstone where they impacted. I've not seen this repeated anywhere else, I'd be interested to know if there is any sandstone anywhere that was lithified just by compaction.

I thought the process that forms sandstone is as much a chemical process that forms a binding matrix as it is a physical process that applies a force to compact the sand.

I wonder how much force it would take to compact sand into stone without melting it?

I would think that modern explosives apply more force per area than a cannon shot. Bombing ranges all over Nevada should have noticeable evidence if compaction alone causes sandstone to form.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-03-2016 12:30 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-03-2016 4:07 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2332
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006


Message 24 of 121 (779366)
03-03-2016 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by edge
03-03-2016 4:11 PM


Here is one of my favorite pictures of the Entrada Formation on the north end of the Uncompahgre Uplift.

And above that is the Wanakah Formation, a series of mudstone and sandstone. The Entrada is an aquifer and also contains many of the uranium deposits in the area.

That is a sweet shot. Is Mesa Vere a part of the same formation? It looks similar.

Do you know, is the uranium associated with zircon crystals or sand? The reason I ask is, for years I worked in the analytical lab of a zirconium refinery and one of the byproducts of extracting zirconium from zircon sand was uranium that had to be disposed of at a facility at the Hanford Nuclear reservation. I guess what I'm asking is what minerals contain the uranium?


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by edge, posted 03-03-2016 4:11 PM edge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by edge, posted 03-03-2016 8:00 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2332
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006


(4)
Message 25 of 121 (779387)
03-03-2016 7:50 PM


Back tracking a bit
I am still sorting through images and thought this one shows some cool looking strata. I think this is called Mt. Jackson Ridge. It is just north of Hwy 266 near the junction with Hwy 95 south of Goldfield Nevada.

I like vertical layers of strata that are now exposed to erosion.

We had just come from Deep Springs Valley to the west, where there was also a lot of tortured landscape and exposed quartzite. In the distance you can see the White Mountains, where some of the ancient Bristle Cone Pines, Pinus longaeva, are found. Above those are the tops of the Sierras. The green patch to the left of center is Deep Springs Ranch which is also the private Deep Springs College.

This is looking south toward the dry alkali lake that you can barely see in the above shot. The vegetation where I am standing is lush because there is a small spring with water flowing in a stream for about 0.5 kilometers before disappearing. This is extreme desert at about 6,000 ft elevation. It is about 25 miles north of Death Valley.

The reason I visit this spot is to photograph one of the rarest dragonflies in the world. Cordulegaster deserticola is only known from 3 close springs in the area.

Notice how I managed to slip a mention of dragonflies into the discussion?


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by edge, posted 03-05-2016 12:54 PM Tanypteryx has responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2332
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006


Message 28 of 121 (779562)
03-05-2016 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by edge
03-05-2016 12:54 PM


Re: Back tracking a bit
Tall sage...
Hate the stuff.

Sometimes I do too. At this spot, Antelope Springs, though, on hot days the dragonflies hang up on the shady side of the sage and sometimes I can get close enough to photograph them. This species is really wary, so they are a challenge.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by edge, posted 03-05-2016 12:54 PM edge has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2332
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006


Message 29 of 121 (779563)
03-05-2016 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by edge
03-03-2016 11:33 AM


Hematite Nodules?
Somewhere I read about hematite (Fe2O3) nodules forming in sandstone that contains iron. I have not been able to find the source where I got that.

Could these black rocks be examples of that? This is the Navajo Sandstone in Snow Canyon, Utah again.

There are volcanic rocks overlying the sandstone close by so that may be what we can see here.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by edge, posted 03-03-2016 11:33 AM edge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by edge, posted 03-05-2016 8:17 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2332
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006


Message 33 of 121 (781713)
04-06-2016 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by edge
03-20-2016 11:52 AM


Re: A Testament to Erosion
Sorry it took me so long to get back to this. Lots of good stuff going on in my life right now.

These are nice examples sediments ending up not being lithified but later being uplifted.

I think parts of the Pueblo Range south of Steens Mountain in SE Oregon is similar uplifted gravel deposits.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by edge, posted 03-20-2016 11:52 AM edge has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2332
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006


(1)
Message 35 of 121 (781718)
04-06-2016 8:22 PM


Another testament to erosion
I decided that there is no real reason to just post images in the sequence of my road trip.

I took these three images without paying attention as closely as I should have. At the time I shot them I didn't realize that I right across from the Great Unconformity. (I know, what a dunderhead, right?).

So, this is a panorama of shots from right to left, although the 1st one was taken from a slightly different position.

Part of the reason I didn't realize where I was, must have been the tail-end of my fear of heights. My wife and Daughter and son-in-law and granddaughter had joined my grandson and me for the Grand Canyon part of our trip, so I was also feeling a bit of anxiety when they were close to the edge also.

I wish I had made some images with a telephoto so I had better detail. Oh well, next time.


The Great Unconformity is evidence of very ancient layers (Grand Canyon Supergroup) that were originally deposited mostly horizontally and were later tilted and then eroded. Later, the Tapeats Sandstone and subsequent overlying layers were deposited. There are two unconformities, one at the bottom of the Grand Canyon group where it contacts the Vishnu Schist and at the top, where it contacts the Tapeats.

An unconformity is where there is a time gap where material has been eroded away and then later newer material is deposited. It was under water when the deposition occurred and above sea level when the erosion occurred.

Edited by Admin, : Narrow image width.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by edge, posted 04-07-2016 2:05 PM Tanypteryx has responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2332
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006


Message 36 of 121 (781719)
04-06-2016 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Faith
04-06-2016 7:54 PM


Re: A Testament to Erosion
Faith writes:

Why on earth would anyone have a problem with erosion on a massive scale or any scale? The only problem I have is of course the time factor. No way that pile of gravel took millions of years.

You know what Faith? This thread is in the science forum and we are talking about the science of Geology, not your creationist young earth mythology.

You have no argument here.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 04-06-2016 7:54 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 04-06-2016 8:42 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2332
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006


Message 39 of 121 (781761)
04-07-2016 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by edge
04-07-2016 10:22 AM


Re: A Testament to Erosion
I realize that brainwashing has damaged your ability to think, ...

Now, that's a good way to start a discussion.

Oh don't worry, I don't expect the brainwashed to understand anything I say. Carry on.

Ah, nothing like a parting insult to open up conversation.

Ironic, isn't it? Arrogant insults are the response to anyone who disagrees with her.

It really pisses her off that we have a model that fits all the evidence perfectly. Given a vast period of time, the processes we see today would produce the world we see today. The key to it all is vast amounts of time and the dating evidence supports that conclusion perfectly. Creationists go through all sorts of contortions to try to deny the obvious, and make it fit their mythical flood.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by edge, posted 04-07-2016 10:22 AM edge has not yet responded

  
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