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Author Topic:   The great basic question of science on origin of life
AZPaul3
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Posts: 5321
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 9 of 64 (776486)
01-14-2016 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Vladimir Matveev
01-14-2016 8:02 AM


why membrane sodium pump is needed in the potassium pond? In the pond K+/Na+ ratio is the same as in the living cell.

First, evolution does not work with a purpose. Is there some reason such a pump, even a most primitive one, could not develop absent a need? Second, does the ratio remain the same forever?


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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5321
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 16 of 64 (776494)
01-14-2016 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Vladimir Matveev
01-14-2016 10:10 AM


Sea tide floods potassium pond. And what happens after that?

I don't know. Reasonable speculation may be that those cells that had evolved such a pump would survive. Those that hadn't would probably not fare so well.

Where is experimental evidence of its spontaneous origin?

Spontaneous? Is that the only option available? Taking a page from Behe?

There is no evidences, no proofs! No pump, no life.

There is evidence. Such a pump exists. It came about somehow.

We may not know the exact steps taken for its evolution, what precursors may have developed first, but that doesn't mean there were none.

What is your explanation for the sodium pumps existence?


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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5321
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 33 of 64 (776561)
01-15-2016 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Vladimir Matveev
01-15-2016 12:19 PM


I’ll summarize my understanding (or misunderstanding) of what you are proposing here. Please correct me if I err.

In the beginning the precursors to living cells may have been microspheres of RNAs, DNAs and proteins without any covering, shell or pseudo-cell wall. Since you mentioned Sidney Fox in your OP I assume you to mean microspheres as created by Fox’s method or something similar. Sodium and potassium ions could then be extracted from/expelled to the surrounding medium by certain (unspecified) proteins thus achieving the charge imbalance, or action potential, required for further chemical reactions within the microsphere.

From here, through the usual processes of evolution, the cell wall (lipid bilayer) was evolved complete with ion pumps resulting in, albeit primitive, a functioning living cell.

I read your contention is that in the discipline of abiogenic research this microsphere possibility is not being given due appreciation and study over the more popular spontaneously self-organizing lipid sphere as the vessel of the first precursor cells since, in the lipid sphere, there appears to be no mechanism to shunt ions through a primitive lipid membrane to maintain the charge imbalance, action potential, as necessary.

Let me press you further in that you are NOT saying that the cell, the lipid bilayer cell wall or the sodium-potassium adenosine triphosphatase enzyme were created ex nihilo but were the products of natural evolution stemming from developments within the microspheres.

Is my understanding correct?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Vladimir Matveev, posted 01-15-2016 12:19 PM Vladimir Matveev has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Vladimir Matveev, posted 01-16-2016 1:31 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5321
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 35 of 64 (776572)
01-16-2016 6:48 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Vladimir Matveev
01-16-2016 1:31 AM


Thanks guys for the discussion. However, please read my paper for full intellectual contact!

Your paper is behind a pay wall. I will not buy your paper for this discussion. If there is an open access copy of your paper available I may read that and try to understand your view. Absent that, Vladimir, you will have to present your ideas to us here as best you can if you wish us to discuss them in any intelligent way.

Except at a very cursory level I am not skilled in this area and probably shouldn't try to discuss this at the level you seem to need. You have peaked my interest, however, and I will follow the discussion as it unfolds.

I am pleased to meet you, Vladimir. Welcome to EvC.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Vladimir Matveev, posted 01-16-2016 1:31 AM Vladimir Matveev has not yet responded

  
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