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Author Topic:   Did Jesus teach reincarnation?
ringo
Member
Posts: 18793
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 24 of 230 (776946)
01-23-2016 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by jaywill
01-23-2016 12:04 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
jaywill writes:

On his way to sacrifice his only son Isaac he told his accompanying servants that he and the lad would be returning to them. Since he knew he was to kill Isaac, the strong implication is that he expected that God would raise him from the dead.


Or, that he hoped he'd be able to weasel out of it - which he did.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by jaywill, posted 01-23-2016 12:04 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by jaywill, posted 01-23-2016 2:26 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18793
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 49 of 230 (777004)
01-24-2016 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by jaywill
01-23-2016 2:26 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
jaywill writes:

Paul's commentary is more conclusive to us disciples of Jesus


I was commenting on the story of Abraham and Isaac and your claim that, "The evidence is that Abraham believed in God's raising the dead." At best, it is weak evidence that Abraham may have believed in the possibility of resurrection.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by jaywill, posted 01-23-2016 2:26 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by jaywill, posted 01-24-2016 4:34 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18793
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 50 of 230 (777005)
01-24-2016 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by jaywill
01-23-2016 5:00 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
jaywill writes:

A poster says that Abraham may have expected to wiggle out of the sacrifice.
It is hard to see he thought there was ANY wiggle room in raising up the knife to plunge it into his son.


1. Abraham told his servants that he and Isaac would be back. He didn't say that he'd be back and Isaac would be resurrected eventually. Either he lied to his servants or he didn't believe he'd have to kill Isaac.

2. Abraham told Isaac that God would provide a lamb for the sacrifice. Either he was misleading Isaac into thinking he wasn't the figurative lamb or he didn't believe he'd have to kill Isaac.

3. In Genesis 17:19 God said to Abraham, "Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him." So it was pretty clear that Isaac was not going to die childless.


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ringo
Member
Posts: 18793
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 61 of 230 (777039)
01-25-2016 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by jaywill
01-24-2016 4:34 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
jaywill writes:

Just reading Genesis, the case that Abraham believed in the God of resurrection, may be arguable to some, though not to myself.


That's not what I'm arguing. I just pointed out that Abraham knew that Isaac would live to have children:
quote:
Genesis 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

If he expected God to instantly resurrect Isaac, it wasn't much of a sacrifice.

Note that when Job went through his trials and tribulations, he got everything back except his children. That was a sacrifice. Why didn't God instantly resurrect them too?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by jaywill, posted 01-24-2016 4:34 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by jaywill, posted 01-25-2016 12:13 PM ringo has responded
 Message 67 by jaywill, posted 01-25-2016 12:57 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply
 Message 68 by jaywill, posted 01-25-2016 1:03 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18793
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 63 of 230 (777042)
01-25-2016 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by jaywill
01-25-2016 12:13 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
jaywill writes:

I don't regard this as a really serious question.


Of course you don't. When the Bible contradicts your doctrines, the standard practice is to run away.

(For what it's worth, I agree with you that Jesus didn't teach reincarnation. I'm just saying that that one argument is weak.)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by jaywill, posted 01-25-2016 12:13 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by jaywill, posted 01-25-2016 12:28 PM ringo has responded
 Message 69 by jaywill, posted 01-25-2016 1:11 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18793
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 65 of 230 (777044)
01-25-2016 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by jaywill
01-25-2016 12:28 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
jaywill writes:

You're clever. You're clever. Okay, I got it.


It isn't about being clever. It's about reading what the Bible says. If you use such a weak argument, why would anybody take your other arguments seriously? Instead of thanking me for helping you, you mock me as a "skeptic".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by jaywill, posted 01-25-2016 12:28 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by jaywill, posted 01-25-2016 12:46 PM ringo has responded
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 02-04-2016 1:19 AM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18793
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 78 of 230 (777111)
01-26-2016 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by jaywill
01-25-2016 12:46 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
jaywill writes:

So I don't think Abraham's hope in "the God who gives life to the dead " is a weak rationale.


I didn't say it was. I said that the story of Abraham sacrificing Isaac is weak evidence of that hope.

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 Message 66 by jaywill, posted 01-25-2016 12:46 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18793
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 79 of 230 (777112)
01-26-2016 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by jaywill
01-25-2016 1:03 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
jaywill writes:

Job was not asked by God to give up his children.
They were just taken from him.
He had no choice in the matter.

So I don't think the two experiences are alike in that regard.


They are similar in that both Job and Abraham accepted the death of their children and remained loyal to God.

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ringo
Member
Posts: 18793
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 80 of 230 (777114)
01-26-2016 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by jaywill
01-25-2016 1:11 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
jaywill writes:

So if we just look at Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac WITHOUT the words of the Apostle Paul in Romans 4 or the description in the book of Hebrews, just as a first time reader of the book of Genesis ... Okay. we may very well overlook his hope in resurrection.


I'm not overlooking his hope in resurrection. I'm saying that the story is weak evidence of that hope.

jaywill writes:

Sure, it may escape our notice even when he said they would come back after the sacrifice.


It is weak evidence because he said they would come back after the sacrifice.

jaywill writes:

Why be hostile to what the New Testament explains about Abraham's experience?


I'm not. I'm saying that Abraham's experience is weak evidence of his belief in resurrection. It is evidence - but it is weak evidence.

jaywill writes:

Do you have some basic reason why the NT should not be taken as legitimate discussion of the book of Genesis ?


The basic reason is that any work of literature supersedes second-hand discussion of it. What The Lord of the Rings says is automatically more important that what somebody else claims it says.

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 Message 69 by jaywill, posted 01-25-2016 1:11 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18793
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 97 of 230 (777210)
01-27-2016 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by LamarkNewAge
01-26-2016 11:34 PM


Re: "new age mystics"?
LamarkNewAge writes:

My arguments are based on seeing what is actually there.


Your arguments trip over the stumbling block of canon.

First Sect: "According to the Gospel of Flintstone, Jesus believed in reincarnation."
Second Sect; "We don't accept the Gospel of Flintstone."
First Sect: "Why not?"
Second Sect: "Because it talks about reincarnation."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-26-2016 11:34 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18793
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 129 of 230 (777608)
02-04-2016 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Phat
02-04-2016 1:19 AM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
Phat writes:

Skepticism is how you learn. There is no dishonor in being an honest skeptic.


You're preaching to the choir, sister. Now tell it to jaywill.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 02-04-2016 1:19 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by jaywill, posted 02-04-2016 1:03 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18793
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 139 of 230 (777664)
02-05-2016 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by jaywill
02-04-2016 1:03 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
jaywill writes:

You are skeptical about everything except your own skepticism.


On the contrary, I welcome any criticism of what I've said.

But you don't have any. Your only response was, "I belief, I believe, I believe...." Say something substantive and watch me agree with you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by jaywill, posted 02-04-2016 1:03 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by jaywill, posted 02-05-2016 8:58 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18793
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 143 of 230 (777705)
02-06-2016 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by jaywill
02-05-2016 8:58 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
jaywill writes:

So to you to "believe" is beggarly and weak ?


Yes.

jaywill writes:

I mean do you consider that if someone "believes" then that which is "believed" simply MUST not be true ?


I consider that if one person believes that Jesus taught reincarnation and another person believes that He didn't, they can't both be right. There are (at least) as many false beliefs as true ones.

jaywill writes:

Perhaps to you, "belief" is like a poor stepchild.


Yes. See above.

Jesus Himself invited Thomas to examine the evidence. When there is evidence, it trumps belief.

You seem to forget that I agree with you about what Jesus taught. I just pointed out one weak spot in your reasoning.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by jaywill, posted 02-05-2016 8:58 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18793
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 198 of 230 (880699)
08-09-2020 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Phat
08-09-2020 10:11 AM


Phat writes:

I suppose some would say its a bit like rehiring the workers that had already been fired. Terrible for corporate efficiency.


I'd say it's more like sending them back down to the mail room.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Phat, posted 08-09-2020 10:11 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18793
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 209 of 230 (880751)
08-11-2020 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Phat
08-11-2020 7:58 AM


Re: Confessions Of Saint Phatticus
Phat writes:

I say that your very doubt pushed you into the lack of belief you have now.


That's the whole point of critical thinking: to free us from belief and connect us to reality.

"I've been to Moose Jaw, now I can die." -- John Wing

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Phat, posted 08-11-2020 7:58 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by Juvenissun, posted 08-11-2020 9:38 AM ringo has responded

  
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