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Author Topic:   Did Jesus teach reincarnation?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 168 (776855)
01-21-2016 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by LamarkNewAge
01-17-2016 4:40 PM


Re: Shi ites have the same confusion with the Mahdi
Will he reincarnate?

Is this question even possible to answer? Do we know enough about Elijah's current state to say whether his return to earth requires resurrection, reincarnation, or something less?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-17-2016 4:40 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-21-2016 10:11 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 168 (777063)
01-25-2016 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by jaywill
01-25-2016 1:11 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
Why be hostile to what the New Testament explains about Abraham's experience? Do you have some basic reason why the NT should not be taken as legitimate discussion of the book of Genesis ?

Because it is an after the fact explanation. People are skeptical for the same reason they are skeptical regarding those Nostradamus prophecies that get mapped onto events after they occur.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by jaywill, posted 01-25-2016 1:11 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by jaywill, posted 01-25-2016 8:43 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 168 (777078)
01-25-2016 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by jaywill
01-25-2016 8:43 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
In this case of Genesis and Romans, usually it is not because it is an after the fact explanation. Rather some peoples' problem is that it is an after the fact explanation which is theistic.

After after the fact explanations, particularly when used to claim predictions and prophecy are always going to be an issue. People rightly question such arguments regardless of whether theology is involved as my example using Nostradamus was designed to show.

If your arguments regarding your theology built on such things, it is then questionable to make accusations about why your arguments are not accepted, because the argument has an inherent weakness. Perhaps you simply need a better argument.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by jaywill, posted 01-25-2016 8:43 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by jaywill, posted 01-25-2016 9:58 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 168 (777081)
01-25-2016 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by jaywill
01-25-2016 1:11 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
Sure, it may escape our notice even when he said they would come back after the sacrifice.

You are ignoring some elements of the story. What Abraham told Isaac (that a sheep would be provided for sacrifice) was completely inconsistent with an expectation that Isaac would die and then be resurrected. Further, this story and others in Genesis tell us that Abraham was quite capable of lying if he felt the circumstances warranted it. One egregious example is telling King Abimelech that his wife was his sister where the clear expectation was that his wife would be raped and Abraham would be spared.

So the question becomes exactly which of Abraham's utterances we should take as being the truth. A second question is whether Abraham was expecting that "the Lord would provide" a sheep or a resurrection. Regardless of his expectation, the story is clear that Abraham intended to do what God asked. But what isn't clear even if Abraham was truthful about his expectation of Isaac returning, is exactly how Abraham anticipated the situation to be resolved.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by jaywill, posted 01-25-2016 1:11 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by jaywill, posted 01-26-2016 12:44 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 168 (777085)
01-25-2016 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by jaywill
01-25-2016 9:58 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
Do you think Jesus taught reincarnation ?

No, I don't.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by jaywill, posted 01-25-2016 9:58 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 77 of 168 (777105)
01-26-2016 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by jaywill
01-26-2016 12:44 AM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
It was long known to Abraham that his only son Isaac would be that lamb for the offering. Now he informs Isaac that God will provide a lamb.

Assuming that Abraham expected to kill his son, but there is no way to read his statement as communicating that fact to Isaac. And that is ignoring the problem with the tense which indicates that the lamb was yet to be provided. And to compound things, we have the resolution that does not involve resurrection. The idea that Abraham expected resurrection is speculation, and perhaps just Nostradamus type prophecy. And by that I mean prophecy constructed after the fact.

My own reading of the story is that Abraham expected to kill his son, and spoke to Isaac as he did to keep Isaac's mind at ease. In the end, Isaac was as dutiful to his father as Abraham was obedient to God. But regarding the possibility that Abraham expected resurrection, that simply seems to me at least to be a complete after the fact construction that simply is not justifiable by anything present in Genesis. I am a Christian, and I don't find the after the fact prophecy to be compelling. It is small wonder that others feel it same way.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by jaywill, posted 01-26-2016 12:44 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by jaywill, posted 01-27-2016 10:52 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 168 (777143)
01-26-2016 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by jaywill
01-26-2016 1:50 PM


Lord of the Rings and Nostradamus not withstanding, I see nothing wrong with a Christian like myself looking for indications of the New Testament's analysis of Genesis 22.

That's fine for you, particularly when nobody is questioning your belief. Nobody is saying that you should be trying to persuade yourself to any particular point of view. However in a discussion/debate the standards for holding up your end of a conversation are a bit different.

In particular, you've asked explicitly why others don't find your logic persuasive. You've been told why.

As I said, after the fact explanation is not a stumbling block to most people.

Perhaps you should not take a poll of yourself and a few buds and then expand that to other folks. That's even less persuasive exposition that the one we are criticizing you for.

Abraham counted ... that God was able to raise men even from the dead - period.

Nice! Just plain assertion.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by jaywill, posted 01-26-2016 1:50 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by jaywill, posted 01-27-2016 8:13 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 95 of 168 (777204)
01-27-2016 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by jaywill
01-27-2016 10:52 AM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
Do you mean you are a Christian who does not find Peter's message about Jesus in Acts 2 compelling ?

Whoa, dude. You assume too much here. Your trying to conclude from my statement essentially that anything written post Jesus is wrong. That's not what I mean at all.

What I don't subscribe to is the faux prophecy and numerology aspect of Bible study that make up the bulk of the sermons of many pastors but which don't advance Christianity or Christs essential message in any way.

But in the case of this particular context, what we are talking about is what makes a sensible argument. Yours argument is simply weak, but in my opinion, unnecessary. Attempts to build a bridge between Abraham and Jesus might be important if your task was to convince Jews that they missed the Messiah, but I don't have that particular problem.

Your question is totally off point. It is not relevant to the question at hand. It has some relevance to the topic of the thread, but given that we agree wrt reincarnation, I really don't get your point.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by jaywill, posted 01-27-2016 10:52 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by jaywill, posted 01-27-2016 5:20 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 168 (777233)
01-27-2016 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by jaywill
01-27-2016 5:20 PM


Re: (Un) Conspicuous Appearances?
The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

You are completely ignoring the context which is not just an ancestor/descendant relationship. This conversation is becoming too difficult and does not seem to be accomplishing all that much.

That numbers have typologolical significance, in some cases, in Scripture, I have been persuaded.

I am well aware of that you are so persuaded.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by jaywill, posted 01-27-2016 5:20 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 168 (777356)
01-29-2016 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by jaywill
01-27-2016 9:04 AM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
jaywill writes:

What do you think giving life to the dead means ?

Romans 4:17 does not state that Abraham believed that God quickened the dead. Paul is the one that says that God quickens the dead. You quoted way too little of the context.

quote:
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.


Paul believes in the God of Abraham, the God who quickens the dead.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by jaywill, posted 01-27-2016 9:04 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by jaywill, posted 01-29-2016 7:22 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 115 of 168 (777392)
01-30-2016 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by jaywill
01-29-2016 7:22 PM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
But the context suggests that Abraham believed in this life giving and resurrecting God.

"[Abraham] ... not weakening in faith, he considered his own body as already dead, being about one hundred years old, as well as the deadening of Sarah's womb ... " (v.19)

Of course Abraham was not dead actually dead at relevant time. Your argument is pretty poor. Further, you've gone from a claim of literal resurrection to living a long time and fertility. I'll take that as an admission that your first post was wrong and that you are just trying to save another bad argument.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by jaywill, posted 01-29-2016 7:22 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by jaywill, posted 01-30-2016 6:17 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 121 of 168 (777429)
01-30-2016 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by jaywill
01-30-2016 6:17 PM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
I take it as me tending to agree with the New Testament about Abraham

Amusing.

All you would have to do to demonstrate this is to point out where I disagree with the New Testament. Instead what we find in this case is me demonstrating that the text does not say what you claim and then you changing your story until you are in agreement with the text, but then fail to make your point.

Neither the Old Testament nor the New Testament discuss Abraham's belief in resurrection. Your attempts to make his wife's fertility or his own advanced age equivalent in Abraham's mind to resurrection just don't work.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by jaywill, posted 01-30-2016 6:17 PM jaywill has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-03-2016 6:03 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 125 of 168 (777576)
02-03-2016 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by LamarkNewAge
02-03-2016 6:03 PM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
Hebrews 11 is absent any literal Old Testament "Biblical" characters (or texts) in Hebrews 11 holding resurrection views.

I find this idea quite bizarre. At a minimum we have here a NT interpretation of an OT story indicating resurrection. Why isn't that at least consistent with the author of Hebrews believing in resurrection, regardless of whether he is mangling the story regarding Abraham or telling it correctly?

Your OP talks about Jews saying that Jesus or John the Baptist was Elijah. Is there any indication that Jesus confirmed any of those claims? Because it seems to me that he answered them by acknowledging that he (Jesus) was the Christ. I've always taken that answer to be a denial that Jesus was Elijah. And what about Jesus literally claiming to be the resurrection in John?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by LamarkNewAge, posted 02-03-2016 6:03 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 130 of 168 (777609)
02-04-2016 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by jaywill
02-04-2016 7:58 AM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
A "blasphemer" is one who blasphemes God.

jaywill, this argument is particularly weak. Just saying that Paul blasphemed is not a very strong argument. Surely there are more direct statements from Paul about Lord Jesus. Would it not be blasphemy to spit on God's plan for our salvation, regardless of the details regarding Jesus and his divinity?

Or viewed another way, your argument is that blasphemy consists only of statements that deny God's divinity. Surely that is wrong. Surely Paul viewed his persecution of Christians as blasphemy.

I had not given this idea much thought. I have always taken for granted Paul's belief in the divinity of Jesus. But apparently this concept is difficult to show directly. The link below is to an argument making the case that Paul believed that Jesus was God.

https://carm.org/paul-think-jesus-was-god

Assuming that the scripture cited there are the verses making the strongest case, and maybe that assumption is bad, the best evidence seems to be verses where Paul refers to Jesus as Lord. But Lord has many meanings. And there are just as many references to Jesus as the son of God. Trinitarians of course think these mean the same thing, but the correctness of Trinity doctrine is fairly difficult to demonstrate. Paul says for example that there is " but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ". In context with all of the verses that speak of Jesus as the Son of God, I find the issue difficult to resolve textually based solely on what Paul says.

Perhaps there is no consistent answer, and perhaps that is the reason why different religious sects profess to follow Jesus yet come up with different answers.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by jaywill, posted 02-04-2016 7:58 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by jaywill, posted 02-04-2016 3:17 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 133 of 168 (777628)
02-04-2016 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by jaywill
02-04-2016 3:17 PM


Re: But you reject Hebrews 11 jaywill.
No it is not a weak argument. It is really accumulative point adding to many of the points mentioned in that link to CARM - https://carm.org/paul-think-jesus-was-god.

Why didn't you address any of my complaints about the strength of your argument?

However, the statement I wrote was not a rigorously good definition of the word "blasphemer."

Exactly.

Your phrase "more direct statements" I take to mean more systematic defense of a more doctrinal kind of debate.

Then let me correct you. I am asking for textual statements having less ambiguity than merely saying Paul blasphemed when attacking Christianity and thus Jesus is God because 'blasphemy'. Some of the statements at the link I provided are examples where the implication that Jesus is God far more direct than your argument, and yet still somewhat problematic. And that's even given that I accept Jesus divinity.

If you cannot grasp the significance...

Yeah, I can grasp just fine. How about if you make a better argument?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by jaywill, posted 02-04-2016 3:17 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by jaywill, posted 02-05-2016 12:23 AM NoNukes has responded

  
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