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Author Topic:   Explaining the pro-Evolution position
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6487
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 63 of 393 (792429)
10-09-2016 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Kleinman
10-09-2016 7:42 PM


Re: This seems like a good place...
Wow!
I didn't realize that the TOE included such a claim.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Kleinman, posted 10-09-2016 7:42 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Kleinman, posted 10-09-2016 9:07 PM Theodoric has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6487
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 65 of 393 (792432)
10-09-2016 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Kleinman
10-09-2016 8:25 PM


Re: Failing Peer Review
I would venture to guess that you are the one that needs a lesson in probability theory. Do you really think you have destroyed the TOE in a way that no one has ever thought of in the past? Do you not realize that if you in fact have overturned the TOE you would be internationally famous and win at least one Nobel prize.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Kleinman, posted 10-09-2016 8:25 PM Kleinman has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6487
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 66 of 393 (792433)
10-09-2016 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Kleinman
10-09-2016 8:37 PM


Re: Why the Theory of Evolution is not true
So you got nothing?

Present your argument or move along. None of us want to waste time pandering to you.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Kleinman, posted 10-09-2016 8:37 PM Kleinman has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6487
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 67 of 393 (792434)
10-09-2016 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Kleinman
10-09-2016 7:42 PM


Re: This seems like a good place...
Since you seem to be having trouble with basic science here is an explanation geared to high school level.
quote:
If birds evolved from dinosaurs, would that make them reptiles too?

Yes, birds are reptiles, but let me explain a bit. Biologists use two types of classification systems, the Linnaean and the phylogenetic. The Linnaean system was developed by Carolus Linnaeus in the 1730's. In the Linnaean system, organisms are grouped by characteristics regardless of their ancestry. So a reptile is an animal that is ectothermic and has scales, and birds would not be reptiles. In the 1940's, a biologist named Willi Hennig came up with another classification system that he called phylogenetics. In this system, organisms are grouped only by their ancestry, and characteristics are only used to discover the ancestry. So a reptile is any animal descended from the original group called reptiles, and birds (as well as mammals) would be reptiles.
Usually what people mean when they say birds are reptiles is that birds are more closely related to reptiles than anything else, and this is true in a way, but there are many types of reptiles. Birds are most closely related to crocodiles. To understand this, we should look at some history. The first groups of reptiles evolved about 300 million years ago. About 40 million years later, (very quickly by geologic standards), a group of reptiles called therapsids branched off, which eventually became modern mammals. Other groups of reptiles split off over the next 120 million years, and one branch called the dinosaurs were very successful. These dinosaurs were only distantly related to modern snakes, lizards, and turtles, groups that had split off at different times. But 65 million years ago there was a massive extinction event, and all dinosaurs were killed except for a single group of feathered dinosaurs. These evolved over the next 65 million years into modern birds. So birds aren't just closely related to dinosaurs, they really are dinosaurs! This is what most people mean when they say that birds are reptiles, although technically according to the phylogenetic system mammals are also reptiles.
You may wonder why biologists have two systems of classification. One reason, of course, is the history behind them, but they are also both useful in their own ways. The phylogenetic system is useful for understanding the relationships between animals, whle the Linnaean system is more useful for understanding how animals live. It's sort of like cooking. If you organized all your ingredients phylogenetically, you would put everything that was made from peanuts on the same shelf. Then you could see that peanut butter, peanut oil, and peanut brittle are related to each other. But when you really want to cook, you would use something like the Linnaean system and put all your oils together, all your dry goods together, etc. So both systems have their uses.



https://askabiologist.asu.edu/...ns/birds-dinosaurs-reptiles

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Kleinman, posted 10-09-2016 7:42 PM Kleinman has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6487
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 70 of 393 (792437)
10-09-2016 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Kleinman
10-09-2016 9:07 PM


Re: This seems like a good place...
I don't give a rats ass about your probability argument you refuse to divulge. I was commenting on the strawman you made in the post I responded to.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Kleinman, posted 10-09-2016 9:07 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Kleinman, posted 10-09-2016 9:26 PM Theodoric has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6487
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 74 of 393 (792442)
10-09-2016 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Kleinman
10-09-2016 9:26 PM


Re: Why the Theory of Evolution is not true
Still waiting for you to present your argument.

Yawn!

Still not sure you even know what the TOE is.
Because transforming reptiles into birds is not part of it as far as I can tell.
Do you think it claims humans transformed from chimps or monkey?

Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Kleinman, posted 10-09-2016 9:26 PM Kleinman has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6487
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 77 of 393 (792445)
10-09-2016 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Coyote
10-09-2016 9:59 PM


Re: This seems like a good place...
I have a problem with his simplistic statement that reptiles transformed into birds. I guess technically it is correct but he seems to be trying to confuse the issue by using term reptiles instead of dinosaurs. The idea of common ancestor seems to be lost on him.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Coyote, posted 10-09-2016 9:59 PM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Kleinman, posted 10-09-2016 10:28 PM Theodoric has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6487
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 79 of 393 (792447)
10-09-2016 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Kleinman
10-09-2016 10:04 PM


Re: This seems like a good place...
For you to win both lotteries, that probability will be 1 in a million times 1 in a million, 1 in a trillion,

Why?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Kleinman, posted 10-09-2016 10:04 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Kleinman, posted 10-09-2016 10:32 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6487
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 82 of 393 (792450)
10-09-2016 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Kleinman
10-09-2016 10:28 PM


Re: The reason the theory of evolution is not true
Well thats embarrassing. For you. Only took me one minute using the google.
quote:
Last year, scientists announced the discovery in Siberia of Kulindadromeus, a small, 150 million-year-old, plant-eating dinosaur that had both scales and feathers. The finding of such an ancient plumage prompted the group to speculate that a fuzzy coating of feathers may have been the rule for dinosaurs rather than the exception. Some artists have run with the idea and drawn up depictions of giant feathered brontosaurs.

https://www.theguardian.com/...ers-fossil-analysis-concludes

So according to you there was no evolution from single cell to muticell creatures?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Kleinman, posted 10-09-2016 10:28 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Kleinman, posted 10-09-2016 10:56 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6487
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 151 of 393 (792558)
10-11-2016 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Taq
10-11-2016 12:59 PM


Re: The reason the theory of evolution is not true
I wonder if he could calculate the odds of the one particular raindrop hitting me on the head this morning. I mean they must be astronomical.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Taq, posted 10-11-2016 12:59 PM Taq has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6487
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 152 of 393 (792559)
10-11-2016 1:10 PM


Isn't he just repackaging a bizarre amalgamation of the Junkyard tornado and Behe's irreducible complexity arguments?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6487
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 168 of 393 (792583)
10-11-2016 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Kleinman
10-11-2016 7:17 PM


Re: The reason the theory of evolution is not true
Do you think the TOE states birds descended from modern reptiles?

Edited by Theodoric, : Reword question


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Kleinman, posted 10-11-2016 7:17 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Kleinman, posted 10-11-2016 10:10 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6487
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 239 of 393 (792741)
10-13-2016 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Kleinman
10-13-2016 7:27 PM


Re: Mathematics cannot change reality but when done correctly can predict it
So the reason why dinosaurs can not transform alleles which produce scales into alleles which produce feathers by rmns is that too many genes must be transformed.

How many genes must be transformed to make this change?
What is the limit of the number of genes that could allow the transformation?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Kleinman, posted 10-13-2016 7:27 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by Kleinman, posted 10-13-2016 8:14 PM Theodoric has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6487
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 244 of 393 (792746)
10-13-2016 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Kleinman
10-13-2016 8:14 PM


Re: Mathematics cannot change reality but when done correctly can predict it
So your answer to these questions
Theo writes:

How many genes must be transformed to make this change?
What is the limit of the number of genes that could allow the transformation?


is?
I mean really they are simple questions. You have made it very clear that you have figured this all out therefore you must know the answers.
Sorry but that you have a dead link that asserts something doesn't cut it.
Is the answer for the first question 8 or not?
You know the math, are you saying you don't know the answer for the second question?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Kleinman, posted 10-13-2016 8:14 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Kleinman, posted 10-13-2016 10:03 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6487
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 284 of 393 (792799)
10-14-2016 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by Kleinman
10-14-2016 11:13 AM


Re: Bumblebees can't fly...unless they have big enough engine
No you did not answer whether you are YEC. If you did please reference post. But easier just to answer again. Unless you want to hide something.

If RMNS cannot explain dinosaurs evolving to birds, what does?

Can RMNS explain any evolution from one species to another?

How do you explain that there are birds? How did they come to exist?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Kleinman, posted 10-14-2016 11:13 AM Kleinman has not yet responded

    
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