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Author Topic:   Explaining the pro-Evolution position
Coyote
Member (Idle past 364 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(5)
Message 3 of 393 (777084)
01-25-2016 11:22 PM


Theory
Heinlein had a good explanation of this:

Piling up facts is not science--science is facts-and-theories. Facts alone have limited use and lack meaning: a valid theory organizes them into far greater usefulness. To be valid a theory must be confirmed by all the relevant facts. ... A powerful theory not only embraces old facts and new but also discloses unsuspected facts.

Expanded Universe, pp. 480-481.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Taq, posted 02-01-2016 3:23 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 364 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 36 of 393 (792290)
10-07-2016 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Kleinman
10-07-2016 4:54 PM


If natural selection is not altering the probabilities that a particular mutation will occur at a particular site in a genome, then what do you think that natural selection does?

Natural selection kills off the also-rans.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Kleinman, posted 10-07-2016 4:54 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Kleinman, posted 10-07-2016 6:29 PM Coyote has not yet responded
 Message 45 by kjsimons, posted 10-07-2016 9:40 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 364 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 47 of 393 (792303)
10-07-2016 10:35 PM


This seems like a good place...
This seems like a good place to post this.

Making Genetic Networks Operate Robustly: Unintelligent Non-design Suffices, by Professor Garrett Odell (online lecture):

The bottom line: evolution works.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Kleinman, posted 10-09-2016 7:42 PM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 364 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 75 of 393 (792443)
10-09-2016 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Kleinman
10-09-2016 7:42 PM


Re: This seems like a good place...
quote:
The bottom line: evolution works.

But rmns will not transform reptiles into birds.

Something did.

And it will take more than a mathematical trick to show otherwise. In the meantime, the theory of evolution explains things quite well.

Mathematics is a great tool for describing reality, but only if it is based on reality. Mathematics can be used to "prove" bumblebees can't fly--which is totally incorrect.

So there you are.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Kleinman, posted 10-09-2016 7:42 PM Kleinman has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Theodoric, posted 10-09-2016 10:08 PM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 364 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 78 of 393 (792446)
10-09-2016 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Kleinman
10-09-2016 10:04 PM


Re: This seems like a good place...
Please see Message 47.

This on-line lecture renders your mathematical argument invalid.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Kleinman, posted 10-09-2016 10:04 PM Kleinman has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 364 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 116 of 393 (792515)
10-10-2016 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Kleinman
10-10-2016 5:32 PM


Re: Kleinman's argument
...the reason there is no rational way that feathers can evolve from scales by rmns is there are too many genetic loci which must be transformed simultaneously. Every evolutionary step (beneficial mutation) must amplify in order to improve the probability of another beneficial mutation occurring on some member of the lineage with that particular mutation. rmns only works efficiently when a single selection pressure targets a single gene at a time. As soon as selection pressures target more than a single genetic locus at a time, the multiplication rule of probabilities makes that probability much, much lower. We see this with every real, measurable and repeatable empirical example of rmns.

How then do you explain the fact that real-world evidence shows that scales or scales & feathers evolved into feathers?

Models must conform to, and hopefully explain, real world evidence or they are of little value. Or, whenever the model and the evidence disagree, it is best to reexamine the model...


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Kleinman, posted 10-10-2016 5:32 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Kleinman, posted 10-10-2016 8:02 PM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 364 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 123 of 393 (792522)
10-10-2016 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Kleinman
10-10-2016 8:02 PM


Re: Kleinman's argument
You still have not responded to my Message 47 which deals with mathematics and shows where your entire argument is flawed.

I bet you haven't even watched that on-line lecture.

Models must conform to, and hopefully explain, real world evidence or they are of little value. Or, whenever the model and the evidence disagree, it is best to reexamine the model...

My model is based on real, measurable and repeatable examples of rmns. Perhaps you should reexamine your interpretation of the fossil record.

If your model can't explain all of the real-world fossil record--that's actual data in plain English--then perhaps it needs to be reexamined.

It is a standard creationist tactic to 1) come into a website with a magic bullet that will kill off evolution right blinkin' now and 2) to have a scheme/model/hypothesis/theory that ignores a lot of the data.

We see these magic bullets several times a year here. Most of the posters who fit that description don't last long.

I remember a poster, although on another website, who assured us that the odds against evolution were 1^720. He couldn't understand why we didn't take anything he said seriously.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Kleinman, posted 10-10-2016 8:02 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Kleinman, posted 10-10-2016 10:41 PM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 364 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 128 of 393 (792527)
10-10-2016 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Kleinman
10-10-2016 10:41 PM


Re: Kleinman's argument
What's the point of your hour long video?

I figured you hadn't viewed it.

You want the point? Here's the abstract:

Mathematical computer models of two ancient and famous genetic networks act early in embryos of many different species to determine the body plan. Models revealed these networks to be astonishingly robust, despite their 'unintelligent design.' This examines the use of mathematical models to shed light on how biological, pattern-forming gene networks operate and how thoughtless, haphazard, non-design produces networks whose robustness seems inspired, begging the question what else unintelligent non-design might be capable of.

In other words, your model is countered completely by this one. But of course creationists won't accept that, if they even take the time to view the on-line lecture which most won't.

If you want to try and draw realistic conclusions about the fossil record, you need to take into account the mechanisms of genetic transformation. If your conclusion transcends the laws of physics, you should reconsider your conclusions.

If you want to create realistic models about the fossil record, you need to take into account the fossil record! If your models, no matter how elegant, fail to account for the real-world evidence they are destined for the trash heap of science.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Kleinman, posted 10-10-2016 10:41 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Kleinman, posted 10-11-2016 4:56 PM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 364 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 174 of 393 (792589)
10-11-2016 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Kleinman
10-11-2016 4:56 PM


Re: Kleinman's argument
This part of the abstract sums it up.

This examines the use of mathematical models to shed light on how biological, pattern-forming gene networks operate and how thoughtless, haphazard, non-design produces networks whose robustness seems inspired, begging the question what else unintelligent non-design might be capable of.

In other words "thoughtless, haphazard, non-design" creates complex stuff.

Sorry to have to be the bearer of bad news...


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Kleinman, posted 10-11-2016 4:56 PM Kleinman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Kleinman, posted 10-11-2016 10:28 PM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 364 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 188 of 393 (792606)
10-11-2016 10:36 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Kleinman
10-11-2016 10:28 PM


Re: Kleinman's argument
You're fond of mathematical models, you do the homework and stop trolling us.

You said you got five minutes into that on-line lecture. Try the whole thing. It shows the stuff you're peddling us is invalid.

Of course, I can see why you don't want to watch it...


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Kleinman, posted 10-11-2016 10:28 PM Kleinman has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Admin, posted 10-12-2016 7:46 AM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 364 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(4)
Message 245 of 393 (792748)
10-13-2016 9:47 PM


Bumblebees can't fly...
First, let's look at the physics behind the story. The lift equations for rigid wings are straightforward enough. Bumble-bees are fairly big, weighing almost a gram, and have a wing area of about a square centimetre.Tot up all the figures and you find that bees cannot generate enough lift at their typical flying speed of about 1 ms.

But that doesn't prove that bees cannot fly. All it proves is that bees with smooth, rigid wings cannot glide, which you can show for yourself with a few dead bees and a little lacquer.


So here we have an example of math/physics at work, which shows for a certain set of parameters bumblebees can't fly!

But bumblebees, not having read of this, continue to fly just fine.

So, what does this tell us?

If math and physics professionals model the wrong variables they get the wrong answers, even if all the math is correct.

And, as often is the case, math and physics professionals usually know squat about biology and related subjects. (Increasing one's knowledge of math and physics does not correct this deficiency.)


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Kleinman, posted 10-13-2016 10:12 PM Coyote has responded
 Message 254 by Rrhain, posted 10-14-2016 4:34 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 364 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 250 of 393 (792753)
10-13-2016 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Kleinman
10-13-2016 10:12 PM


Re: Bumblebees can't fly...unless they have big enough engine
You may have more training in math and physics than I do, but you are making the classic creationist "magic bullet" mistake we see so often here. (And I do have a few degrees hanging on my wall. Well, actually, they're stuffed in a drawer somewhere.)

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but a lot of knowledge in a very narrow and largely unrelated field lets you put the silver dagger in the heart of the theory of evolution, eh?

You are about the ten thousandth person to try this, or so it seems. So far none has succeeded.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Kleinman, posted 10-13-2016 10:12 PM Kleinman has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by dwise1, posted 10-14-2016 12:22 AM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 364 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 388 of 393 (792926)
10-15-2016 11:53 AM


Summation
This topic shows that one can use math to "prove" something that is clearly incorrect.

Evolution has been going along just fine, in its bumbling and haphazard way, for a couple of billion years--as shown by many different lines of evidence--so any mathematical model that claims otherwise is just wrong.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


  
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