Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,807 Year: 3,064/9,624 Month: 909/1,588 Week: 92/223 Day: 3/17 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Hypocrisy Among American Fundamentalists
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 1 of 122 (777068)
01-25-2016 2:23 PM


Terms are often used loosely and I think that the term evangelical is often used loosely misunderstood. Although the Atlantic article that I will link uses the term evangelical Christian, I think a more precise term for what they are describing is fundamentalist Christian.
My contention is that American fundamentalists have a belief that is more than simply their version of Christianity. It is in reality a blend of their faith, politics and nationalism. As a Christian myself, I would consider myself evangelical even though my beliefs are a long way from the beliefs of fundamentalists such as Faith. it is my contention that in reality American fundamentalists use their faith to justify their politics and their brand of nationalism. They are quite prepared to ditch their Christian beliefs when necessary to support their politics and nationalism.
The following is an article from The Atlantic and here is the link: Why Do Evangelicals Support Donald Trump?
The point is that Christians of any stripe should be appalled a the idea of a President Donald Trump. As the article points out his life reeks of everything that Jesus condemned. He has gained power by accumulating wealth, he holds racist policies, he is pro-life when it suits him politically, and so on.
His beliefs are not Christian. He claims to belong to a Presbyterian church but doesn't attend. The article had this to say about his faith. Trump knows this and has ramped up his religious rhetoric on the campaign trail. But he has had a difficult time convincing anyone that he is within gunshot of orthodoxy. On the matter of asking forgiveness for sinshardly an obscure Christian doctrineTrump says he’s never done it. I think if I do something wrong, I think, I just try and make it right, hesaidrecently. I don't bring God into that picture. Trumpdeclaredthat his favorite book was the Bible, but when asked to name his favorite Bible verse, The Donalddeclined. And hespoke flippantly of the cornerstone Christian sacrament of communion, saying he feels cleansed when I drink my little wine and have my little cracker.
The fundamentalists who trumpet their Christian faith are quite prepared to rationalize their faith when it comes to their politics or their sense of nationalism. In other words, their politics trumps, (pun intended ) their Christianity.
Any forum you consider suitable.
Edited by GDR, : Just really poorly written. I shouldn't post in a hurry. Thanks nwr
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.
Edited by GDR, : I'll get it sorted yet

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminAsgara, posted 01-25-2016 3:42 PM GDR has replied
 Message 6 by Tangle, posted 01-26-2016 3:01 AM GDR has replied
 Message 8 by ringo, posted 01-26-2016 12:08 PM GDR has replied
 Message 9 by NoNukes, posted 01-26-2016 12:09 PM GDR has replied
 Message 10 by NoNukes, posted 01-26-2016 1:13 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 15 by Porosity, posted 01-26-2016 3:39 PM GDR has replied
 Message 23 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-27-2016 2:18 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 31 by 14174dm, posted 01-30-2016 4:23 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 3 of 122 (777070)
01-25-2016 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminAsgara
01-25-2016 3:42 PM


None of them fit perfectly but I'd suggest "Comparative Religions".
Obviously there are a wide variety of views on Christian theology. It is my view that Christian fundamentalism as is seen in the western world, although predominately in the US, is an aberration of the Christian faith.
In this case it is a religion that combines the idea of an inerrant Bible, politics and American nationalism. My view is that we are comparing that with a Christianity based on Scripture, reason and tradition. (I view tradition as being the accumulated wisdom over time and particularly since the time of the resurrection.
That is my rationale for putting it under "Comparative Religions"

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminAsgara, posted 01-25-2016 3:42 PM AdminAsgara has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 01-26-2016 2:43 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 7 of 122 (777119)
01-26-2016 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
01-26-2016 2:43 AM


Re: Fundamentalism By Definition
Phat writes:
I would say that Christians who do not consider themselves fundamentalists--or at least conservative--believe in scripture as inspired by God. This does not necessitate that it be word for word literal. I persionally lean towards a belief in thought for thought literalism.
Inspired as it applies to Scripture seems to have taken on a new meaning. Here is the Webster definition:
quote:
1 [more inspired; most inspired] : very good or clever
She gave an inspired performance.
He was an inspired choice for the role.
an inspired guess
opposite uninspired
2: having a particular cause or influence
Her comments were politically inspired. [=they were made for political reasons]
often used in combination
So I agree that the Biblical authors were inspired. Luke at the beginning of that Gospel tells how he believed that he should consolidate previous sources concerning the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. He was inspires just as was Beethoven who wrote inspired music.
I believe that we are inspired to read the Scriptures, and through what others have written in the past God will inspire us. The longer time goes on, the more accumulated wisdom of the nature of God we gain.
This does not mean that the Scriptures are inerrant, but as a Christian who believes that Jesus, as confirmed by His resurrection, did embody the true nature of God. With that in mind we can then use the lens of what Jesus taught as a lens in which we can understand the Bible. WE can for example know that God is not a god of genocide or public stonings, so that when we read that sort of thing in the Bible we can learn how easily and how far we can go off the rails and of the consequences of that.
If we read the Scripture as inerrant we can come up with a deity that will condone pretty much anything in certain circumstances, or in other words a god of situational ethics. Remember in Jesus we see God as someone who is telling a first century Jew living under the Roman thumb that they are to love that enemy and turn the other cheek. Again, we learn through that the true enemy is evil itself and that in the end it is about changing hearts and not about overpowering a specific enemy.
That comes back to my original point. American fundamentalists, (or whatever we want to define them as), are engaging in situational ethics in supporting Donald Trump, largely because of their faith being the a combination of their religion, their nationalism and theri politics.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 01-26-2016 2:43 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 11 of 122 (777126)
01-26-2016 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Tangle
01-26-2016 3:01 AM


Tangle writes:
Fundamental seems now to be associated with extreme violent beliefs so, with some exceptions, that's probably not much use either.
Maybe ultra-conservative is closer?
I think that there are those on this forum who are happy to be called Christian fundamentalists, and I don't see them advocating for torching mosques or anything similar.
Maybe we can just use fundamentalist and ultra-conservative as synonyms.
Tangle writes:
Whatever, they are, they don't seem to have the same understanding of Christ's message as I do. Not only are they right wing republicans, they seem to see Jesus as an open carry member of the NRA.
That is my point. They compromise Christian belief in order to accommodate their politics and their nationalism.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Tangle, posted 01-26-2016 3:01 AM Tangle has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 12 of 122 (777127)
01-26-2016 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by ringo
01-26-2016 12:08 PM


ringo writes:
Damn it! You made me agree with Donald Trump.
...and so I'm sure that you are already signed up and contributing to the Kevin O'Leary for Prime Minister club.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by ringo, posted 01-26-2016 12:08 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 13 of 122 (777131)
01-26-2016 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by NoNukes
01-26-2016 12:09 PM


NoNukes writes:
I think one problem is that fundamentalism is an evolving term that is at the current time pretty much the same as 'the belief system conservative, religious right'. The state of the union/constitution is such that many of the political goals of that part of the country are unobtainable. So often, it is not that fundamentalists do not embrace those issues, it is that they do not decide their vote on those issues.
I could make a similar case about religious minorities who turned out in droves for Obama despite his stand on gay marriage and reproductive rights. Many of those people did so despite their own positions on immigration policy being more in line with the republican position.
If such a thing is hypocritical, I submit that the hypocrisy is more widespread than just a bunch of people holding their noses and endorsing Trump. Quite frankly, I don't label such voting as hypocrisy. Religious affiliation is simply one factor in deciding who to vote for. Currently Trump leads all republican other candidates regardless of what factor (economy, foreign policy, security) in all subdivisions of likely republican voters (establishment, tea part, right leaning independents).
Of course every time we vote we have to make compromises. We aren't going to find politicians that we will always agree with.
My point though is that fundamentalists aren't evenly split between the various candidates. They seem like, as have Palin and Falwell, they have coalesced around Trump.
My point is that what they believe to be their Christian beliefs are in fact coloured as much, and in this case more, by their political beliefs as well as their sense of nationalism. I have had the view expressed to me that the USA is God's chosen nation.
This is not in any way meant to be taken as anti-American. Personally I am very pro-American and although I have always lived in Canada my immediate family is very much a cross border one, including my wife, one of my sons and 4 grand-kids. It isn't being anti-American to oppose the proliferation of guns, or even things like the idea of regime change in Iraq.
Look at my signature. The fundamentalists who support Trump believe in an inerrant Bible. We have seen enough of Trump on television over the years that kind is not a word that would come to mind in describing him. What kind of justice is it to essentially treat all Muslims as potential terrorists. Certainly humility is not a term that anyone would use when it comes to Trump.
So yes, we do have to take some water in our wine when it comes to our politics, but in this case I suggest that there is considerably more water than there is wine and that their politics have overwhelmed their Christianity which requires a degree of hypocrisy, when one considers their fundamentalist doctrine.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by NoNukes, posted 01-26-2016 12:09 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 16 of 122 (777141)
01-26-2016 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Porosity
01-26-2016 3:39 PM


Porosity writes:
Why would any Christian support a billionaire for president when there is nothing more Christian than preventing rich people from becoming rich? There's never been a single documented case of a camel passing through the eye of needle, that's a nice a way of saying "a snowball's chance in hell." After all, Trumps chance of going to heaven (as rich) is zero according to the Jesus myth.
I'm not saying that a Christian shouldn't support a billionaire. (Some of my best friends are billionaires. ) I'm saying that a Christian should support someone with at least close to the Christian values that they espouse.
Incidentally that quote you use has not about going to hell. It is about being part of the kingdom of those who can turn away from , (amongst other false idols), the love of money in becoming part of the Kingdom of Jesus followers in this life. Wealth and other distractions just make it harder to take the focus off of the self and put it on others. Many such as Jean Vanier, a man born into wealth have been able to do just that.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Porosity, posted 01-26-2016 3:39 PM Porosity has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by NoNukes, posted 01-26-2016 5:31 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 19 of 122 (777152)
01-26-2016 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by NoNukes
01-26-2016 5:31 PM


NoNukes writes:
And I am suggesting that most people don't do that. With the exception of a teeny-tiny fragment, nobody votes for candidates because they agree with their positions on religion. The closest they come to doing so is voting for a set of social values that are only loosely tied to religion.
Do you vote for candidates that espouse the same religious views as yourself? Who among the current candidates meets that criteria?
Fine but most people vote for someone who holds the same world view that they do and their world view is largely formed by their religious beliefs if they are religious.
They might be looking for a candidate with family values, however one defines them, pro-life or pro-choice values etc. I just don't see Trump consistently holding views that are representative of the Christian right in the US.
However, I get your point and I probably have come on a little strong and I let my personal bias influence what I have written.
Frankly in the US right now I have no idea who I would support. I obviously don't vote. If I were to be voting in the US I would normally favour the Republicans but there are many times I have favoured the democratic candidate.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by NoNukes, posted 01-26-2016 5:31 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by NoNukes, posted 01-26-2016 7:53 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 22 by Taq, posted 01-26-2016 8:11 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 115 by Phat, posted 03-31-2016 9:25 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 27 of 122 (777220)
01-27-2016 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by NoNukes
01-26-2016 8:01 PM


The Bias in Our Votes
I came across this article in the latest edition of Christianity Today and thought it was relevant.
All Christians Are Biased Voters
I go back to my point about fundamentalists in the US. They are in large numbers apparently backing Trump. My contention again is that they do this because their world view is based on their understanding of the Bible, their politics and their nationalism. In this case I'm suggesting that in order to support Trump they are prepared to compromise their religious beliefs in favour of their politics and their nationalism IMHO.
Edited by AdminAsgara, : fixed link

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by NoNukes, posted 01-26-2016 8:01 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by NoNukes, posted 01-27-2016 4:20 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 34 of 122 (777472)
02-01-2016 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by NoNukes
01-27-2016 4:20 PM


Re: The Bias in Our Votes
NoNukes writes:
The part above is something I can agree with. But the conclusion that this bias shows hypocrisy or compromise of religious values is where we disagree. I accept that the fundys are sincere in their beliefs and in how they vote even though I think they are misguided.
Sorry to be so slow replying but I have been busy and I wanted to spend at least a little time on answering the question on who I would vote for.
It seems to me that fundamentalists view their beliefs as being just that - fundamental. It seems to that that when their political views on things like gun control over-ride views that are derived from their religious beliefs it is hypocritical.
NoNukes writes:
I understand that you cannot vote, but which republican candidate attracts you. I don't see a single one that I could vote for. I understand that Trump is not your man. Huckabee? Cruz? To be clear, I am curious about which candidate you think presents the right choice for an American Christian.
I had real trouble finding anyone that I would align with. To be honest as a Canadian I haven't followed the election down there as much as I probably should. I took a quiz that said O'Malley most closely supported my views but I just couldn't agree with that conclusion.
In doing a little reading I suppose it would be Rand Paul but I know he doesn't have a chance, and I don't agree with him on some issues anyway. I would like to see the US Have a foreign policy that sees military intervention around the world done judiciously, openly and based strictly on the best interests of the area involved without any attempt to impose a western form of government. I suggest that American economic interests should not be part of the equation.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by NoNukes, posted 01-27-2016 4:20 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by NoNukes, posted 02-10-2016 9:45 AM GDR has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 35 of 122 (777473)
02-01-2016 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by 14174dm
01-30-2016 4:23 PM


Re: Politics before Christianity
14174dm writes:
IMHO many of the Religious Right are first politically conservative and then religiously conservative/fundamental.
As an agnostic married to a believer, I've been attending churches for over 25 years. A couple of the churches were Southern Baptist with politically conservative pastors.
I remember one pastor from the pulpit urging the congregation to sign his anti-ObamaCare petition. No Biblical arguments, just political ones against ObamaCare. No alternative solutions either.
Liberty University is advocating the carrying of guns including on campus. In announcing the change, University President Jerry Falwell Jr referred being able to kill Muslims like those responsible for the San Bernardino shooting as the reason. I however haven't found any references to Biblical justification for carrying a device which has the sole purpose of killing.
Good post and it again supports my view that US fundamentalism is a rather unholy mixture of a perverted understanding of how the Bible should be understood, political views and nationalism.
Actually, if the Bible is viewed as being essentially dictated by God then you can justify pretty much anything. However, if you view Jesus Christ as being the embodied Word of God and read the Bible through that lens then you have a Christianity that looks very different than what we see in fundamentalism. (This is not at all to say that the OT isn't important but it does present a very different understanding of what we are to learn from it.)
For anyone interested here is a link to a short book by a highly respected particle physicist, John Polkinghorne, on his views, (which are pretty much consistent with mine), on how to best understand the Scriptures.
Testing Scripture: A Scientist Explores the Bible

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by 14174dm, posted 01-30-2016 4:23 PM 14174dm has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024