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Author Topic:   The Marketing Of Christianity
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member

Message 160 of 591 (782138)
04-18-2016 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Hyroglyphx
04-09-2016 2:49 AM

Re: Spiritual Gifts
The point is that it is circular logic. God is saving you from something he himself imparted and set up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-09-2016 2:49 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Phat, posted 04-18-2016 6:38 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member

Message 330 of 591 (792097)
10-03-2016 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by Tangle
10-03-2016 10:20 AM

Re: repeating old material
In Message 316, you wrote:

NN writes:

Right. But as I pointed out, that creed does not put the Catholic Church as the authority for remission of sins.

I suspect that Catholics would disagree with you -

But not because of what the Nicene Creed says.

The creed is just an attempt at capturing the basic important stuff into one list of belief statements.

I don't see anywhere in the creed that says that it might not be the truth or the only path.

Well, it is a bunch of statements of beliefs rather than statements of facts.

We believe this and we believe that. Not, this is a fact and that is a fact.

In fact rather the opposite.

We believe [...] In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.

That's not saying what you think its saying. Here's some more info on that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Marks_of_the_Church

The four characteristics of the Christian Church are:

1. one - one body and one spirit
2. holy - on purpose from God
3. catholic - universal and complete
4. apostolic - originated from Jesus' apostles

While specific doctrines, based on both tradition and different interpretations of the Bible, distinguish one Church or denomination from another, largely explaining why there are so many different ones, the Four Marks, when defined the same way, represent a summary of what historically have been considered the most important affirmations of the Christian faith.

From Message 322:

The whole intent of the creed is to claim the true god and the way to heaven through it. I'm not interested in the bible here - just the creed.

Not really. It was an ecumenical council, which means there were multiple groups with different beliefs participating. The intent was to get down to the basic important stuff that everyone found agreeable rather than outline the one true way that things should be.

From Message 324:

But the other assumption is that only believers in the one god will make it to the afterlife and that is what is taught by almost all versions of your club.

No, that is not covered by the creed. That is outside the creed's purpose. The creed is just a list of belief statements.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by jar, posted 10-03-2016 12:58 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member

Message 335 of 591 (792103)
10-03-2016 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by jar
10-03-2016 12:58 PM

Re: repeating old material
And for most of the history all four of those characteristics were not in evidence. First there was the Holy Roman Empire that was neither Holy or Roman and one body and one spirit as long as Charlemagne was alive but then various Italian bodies and spirits until Otto was crowned.

By 1054 the first of the Great Schisms led to the creation of the Roman Catholic Church and the Greek Orthodox Church with all ties between the two severed.

Then there was the Avignon Papacies when the Throne of Peter and papacy were in Avignon instead of Rome. That lasted for seven popes IIRC.

Then there was the Western Schism when the College of Cardinals elected multiple simultaneous Popes with three different men all claiming to be the legitimate pope.

And then came the Reformation and Henry.

And onward and upward to the thousands of bodies today.

As I understand it, the belief statement in the creed is claiming that all of that falls under one umbrella of "The Christian ChurchTM", or something like that.

In fact today the vast majority of Christian sects are not Apostolic but rather claim the legitimacy of being "called".

I still laugh at one protestant in particular responding to me pointing out that Jesus said that Peter would be the rock of his church, and that the church today descends from that through apostolic succession, with claiming that the Bible was really talking about Peter's faith as being the rock of the church and the apostolic succession had nothing to do with being a true christian today.

I don't remember exactly, but that's where I bowed out. Seems anything can be spun to fit that narrative.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by jar, posted 10-03-2016 12:58 PM jar has not yet responded

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member

Message 342 of 591 (792111)
10-03-2016 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 341 by Tangle
10-03-2016 5:40 PM

Re: repeating old material
An objective view - rather than a religious view - would make the resurrecting of Jesus no more impressive than the resurrecting of Lazarus.

Given what's in the story, objectively:

Lazarus didn't predict his own resurrection.
Jesus predicted Lazarus's resurrection.
Jesus predicted his own resurrection.

∴ Jesus' resurrection was more impressive than Lazarus's.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by Tangle, posted 10-03-2016 5:40 PM Tangle has not yet responded

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