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Author Topic:   The Marketing Of Christianity
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 55 of 591 (780986)
03-29-2016 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Phat
03-29-2016 1:15 PM


Re: Hurricane Yahweh
Isa 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Phat, posted 03-29-2016 1:15 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 03-29-2016 1:36 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 59 of 591 (780991)
03-29-2016 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Phat
03-29-2016 1:36 PM


Re: Hurricane Yahweh
There are degrees of judgment. I recognized 9-11 as God's judgment on America, but it was a very mild judgment, more of a warning. More to come if we don't repent. Well we aren't repenting and I think more has been steadily coming all these years since 9-11. I think God is using Islam to punish Europe, and we're next.

Deuteronomy and Leviticus both contain passages describing how God blesses a nation for obedience and brings disasters for disobedience. I'd have to look up the passages, I always get the numbers wrong. Leviticus 26 I think. Judgment includes economic collapse, enemies invading us, foreigners taking over the land, etc.

The scripture says God doesn't bring total judgment until a certain level of sin is reached. He didn't send the Israelites into Canaan to war against them until the sins of the Canaanites had reached a certain level which took over four hundred years.

However, I experience His personal chastizings for my own sins a lot so it's not as if He doesn't judge us personally.

Yes, He could just wipe us out since even one sin has infinite consequences But He's merciful to us sinners.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Phat, posted 03-29-2016 1:36 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Phat, posted 03-29-2016 2:35 PM Faith has responded
 Message 62 by jar, posted 03-29-2016 8:09 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 61 of 591 (780995)
03-29-2016 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Phat
03-29-2016 2:35 PM


Re: Repent Or Perish
1Pe 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

If judgment begins with the Church, it's because the Church has committed sins, and therefore repentance has to begin with the Church too. As the prophet Daniel confessed the sins of Israel as if he himself had committed them all, that attitude on the part of believers today would go a long way toward slowing down God's judgment. Most of us pray for the nation but how organized is it, and how much repentance do we do as part of it?

We have had Presidents in the past who called for a day of prayer and fasting and repentance for various reasons, such as anticipating war. I don't think that's going to happen any more. Even if Cruz became President, who is the only current contender who might be expected to do it, I rather doubt he'd be able to call for such a day given the general attitude of the nation toward religion.

It's the NATIONAL level sins that call down judgment on a nation, more than it is personal sins, but if personal sins are treated as acceptable I'm sure that adds to the problem. I think of legalized abortion as a major one of course, nothing short of legalized murder, and legalized means the blood is on the hands of the government, and that's what brings God's judgment against the nation as a whole. That's the way it was in ancient Israel too. One major thing we need to repent of. The Churches can do that but most of America thinks it's a woman's right so a general repentance isn't going to happen. We could also count the removal of prayer from the schools. Righto, another "progressive" move on the part of the powers that be, who of course think all religions are the same, and misread the First Amendment to treat school religious exercises as violating the separation of church and state. There is the liberalization of laws concerning divorce (scripture says "God hates divorce." I doubt He likes it any more when Americans do it than anybody else.) All sorts of "sexual freedoms" are now tolerated and even rewarded such as by welfare help through the government for single mothers and so on. Social disintegration is one of God's judgments. I'm sure I'm leaving out lots of sins. I do think Hollywood is a major contributor to the general sin level. Gay marriage doesn't come in to this until very recently and that has to be added to the list.

What chance do you see with a list of sins like that against us in this age of Political Correctness that the nation would ever repent of them and come back under God's blessings?

Not much, right?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Phat, posted 03-29-2016 2:35 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-29-2016 11:39 PM Faith has responded
 Message 74 by PaulK, posted 03-30-2016 7:49 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 73 of 591 (781027)
03-30-2016 7:06 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Hyroglyphx
03-29-2016 11:39 PM


Re: Repent Or Perish
What's the point of "slowing down God's judgment" if the outcome is already written in stone?

Who said it was set in stone? Recognizing that we're already under judgment and more is yet to come is a call to repentance so that God may relent. I firmly believe that if there was a great movement of Christian repentance and revival among the churches we could turn back His judgment. Especially if revival brought many others to belief who would join us in the cause.

I don't see how one could argue against slowing down the arrival of a miserable future in any case.

Even the very last days which we are all anticipating, God's final judgment on the entire planet, which ARE "set in stone" in that we know what's going to happen, I believe can be put off if the Church repents and prays and turns back some of the reasons for it. The only reason it can't be put off indefinitely is that we don't have enough fervor and determination to keep petitioning God to do it. Otherwise even the end days could be put off "forever."

The bible is the ultimate spoiler alert since you know the ending before it comes... and if you believe the bible to be authentic, then why not just let things come to pass as they were preordained to and worry about your walk with God?

Why would you think a person's "walk with God" wouldn't include petitioning Him to save the nation? Or the world? Or millions of people who don't believe in Him? That IS our walk with God or a big part of it. Abraham pleaded for Sodom. Moses pleaded for God's errant people. That's our model.

Even if Cruz became President, who is the only current contender who might be expected to do it, I rather doubt he'd be able to call for such a day given the general attitude of the nation toward religion.

Even if he did, so what? Would it matter? People are responsible for themselves. Sin and immorality don't suddenly vanish just because the POTUS makes a "call to prayer."

Oh ye of little faith. If the nation joined him in such a prayer I have no doubt things would change in important ways. Attitudes here and there would change, new people would become voices for returning to God, maybe we'd get a powerful new political leader. Things have to change first in the church and then in the leadership of the nation.

It's the NATIONAL level sins that call down judgment on a nation

Which is hilarious considering the bible discusses how we should not be held liable for the Sins of the Father. And then in other versus it says we are expected to pay for the Sins of the Father. With such inconsistency, it calls the whole thing in to question.

The "sins of the fathers" continue to be visited down the generations. This is about generational inheritance of sin. It includes a tendency in the children to the same sins as the fathers as well as judgment against those sins, and this is part of the operation of God's law, it's not something that could be rescinded. And it's about family lineage, just as the entire human race inherits the sin nature of our father Adam, it's not about national sin. I think you've got two different things confused. One thing a believer has is the certainty that the scripture does not contradict itself. If it seems to, that merely means you haven't grasped what it is saying.

We are judged for our own sins, but unfortunately we also still have the tendencies of our ancestors -- although knowing these things gives us strength to resist the temptations that come to us through this route, and we suffer the consequences in any case.

But God still judges whole nations that reject His Law and approve of sins He disapproves of. "Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD..." (Psalm 33). Do you think it's just an historical accident that the Roman Empire collapsed under the assaults of invaders? That formerly great nations are now completely eclipsed as world powers? Greece? Egypt? Persia? Babylon?

We're told in the New Testament that the Old Testament was given for our instruction. If we learn nothing else from it we should learn that God judges nations.

HERE's an interesting article on the passages you consider to be contradictory. It explains that we inherit the sin but that we are not to be punished by human legal systems for any but our own.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-29-2016 11:39 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 100 of 591 (781142)
04-01-2016 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by jaywill
04-01-2016 7:56 AM


Re: Jar Unplugged and Leaking badly
In the church meetings the Apostle Paul even said the functioning members may have a revelation.

Hi Jaywill. First I want to say how much I generally appreciate your posts. When you are on a thread I figure I can sit back and let you say it all because it's usually the truth better than I would be able to say it.

This statement above caught my attention, though, and I want to ask if you consider yourself a charismatic, believing that the spiritual gifts are for today?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by jaywill, posted 04-01-2016 7:56 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by jaywill, posted 04-01-2016 9:32 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 103 of 591 (781148)
04-01-2016 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by jaywill
04-01-2016 9:32 AM


Re: Responding to Faith's question
Thanks for your reply.

How to encourage more participation in a church is a topic I'd be interested in hearing more about since I think there is generally a problem there in most churches. I'd say what has happened is that those who possess the particular gifts of preaching and teaching have come to dominate while other gifts aren't given much of an opportunity to develop -- except the gifts of helps and administrations and that sort of thing of course. I'm not sure I agree with you that all should be encouraged to speak, however, since there are definitely people who have speaking gifts whereas others don't. Also I believe Paul's letters to Timothy do encourage a singular role for pastor-teacher. But the idea that there is a variety of gifts that need more encouragement makes sense. If you'd like to start a thread I'd like to hear what you have to say.

But as far as the supernatural or miraculous spiritual gifts go I was finally convinced by the "Strange Fire Conference" put on by John MacArthur's church a couple years ago that the supernatural gifts did truly stop at the end of the apostolic age. I'd never been convinced one way or the other before though I'd struggled with the question for many years, because of my own experiences in a charismatic church where I was more put off by the manifestations of the so-called "gifts" than edified by them.

The Conference speakers finally put my doubts to rest, proving from scripture that the gifts had in fact ceased, as well as from the fact that the "gifts" as practiced by the charismatics today simply are not at all what the New Testament describes as the gifts, not the "tongues" or the "healings" or the "prophecy." The key words are "supernatural" and "gifts" -- abilities given to particular individuals that remain their possession. THAT is what has stopped, not God's power to do any of these things through anyone if He so chooses. They just aren't gifts to persons the way they were in the foundational Church. And this also doesn't mean that God no longer gives gifts to individuals either, just not the supernatural gifts, which were needed to launch the Church but not needed as part of our ongoing Christian life. So for instance we still have the gifts of preaching and teaching and evangelism and prophecy in the sense of explicating the Bible as you say. And again, God can still do supernatural works if He pleases, but as gifts those powers have dropped out.

But maybe we should have another thread for sorting out these things.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by jaywill, posted 04-01-2016 9:32 AM jaywill has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Phat, posted 04-01-2016 12:04 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 109 of 591 (781176)
04-01-2016 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Phat
04-01-2016 12:04 PM


Re: Spiritual Gifts
Jaywill sounds like he has a different form of church in mind than the usual, and although I vaguely recall that he brought this up once before in a way that I thought odd or even heretical despite his generally solidly biblical arguments, I don't remember it well enough to be sure and I'm curious what this other form of church is like. I myself always particularly enjoyed small groups off the larger church and have always been sorry that my current church doesn't think they are a good idea. I could see how spiritual gifts, which are after all possessed by every Christian, could be better put to use in a small group, but that's what I'd want to see discussed.

ABE: Now I remember that he supported some of Witness Lee's ideas about the Local Church, and that prompted me to read up on the controversy about that. I came away convinced that Lee's vision was acceptable within the New Testament context.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Phat, posted 04-01-2016 12:04 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 110 of 591 (781177)
04-01-2016 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Phat
04-01-2016 12:04 PM


Re: Spiritual Gifts
First a question in general. jar believes that the church is called to help everyone whether they profess Christianity or not.(correct me if I'm wrong, jar) Does everyone see wisdom in this or do we spend our money and time on Christians first?

If we have limited means we start with the Family of God, it wouldn't make sense to ignore your Christian brother or sister while spending all your means on an unbeliever. That said, we are to help whoever needs it, but gospel first is the right order. Feed people, sure, but what people need most is salvation and taking care of the body while ignoring that primary need is a big mistake.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Phat, posted 04-01-2016 12:04 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Phat, posted 04-02-2016 6:48 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 121 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-04-2016 1:08 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 122 of 591 (781320)
04-04-2016 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Hyroglyphx
04-04-2016 1:08 AM


Re: Spiritual Gifts
You have the most amazing ability to read stuff into my posts that simply is not there, and impute whole scenarios to me that didn't cross my mind. I did not say DON'T FEED THEM for pete's sake. I was addressing the common problem of attempts to help people that LEAVE OUT the gospel. You invented the whole scenario of the street preacher with the wrong attitude. You don't have a clue, I wish you'd just stop responding to my posts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-04-2016 1:08 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-04-2016 3:38 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 124 of 591 (781332)
04-04-2016 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Hyroglyphx
04-04-2016 3:38 AM


Re: Spiritual Gifts
OK you are going to continue with the personal insults so I'll start ignoring you. YOu should have been suspended half a dozen times by now for your personal attacks.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-04-2016 3:38 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-04-2016 4:10 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 127 of 591 (781354)
04-04-2016 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Hyroglyphx
04-04-2016 4:10 AM


Re: Spiritual Gifts
What a martyr! This will be my only response to this off-topic diatribe. I'm challenging you based on what you were quoted as saying. I'm sorry that you cannot handle any amount of criticism, but that's not a failing on my part. Being critical isn't the same as being persecuted, ma'am.

It is against the rules to criticize the person, you are to criticize the message not the person, and you misread the message anyway. I'm glad to hear you are not going to respond any more. Hooray.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-04-2016 4:10 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 131 of 591 (781361)
04-04-2016 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by jar
04-04-2016 11:08 AM


Re: Spiritual Gifts
Jaywill wasn't using the word "needs" for God as we would use it for people, it is false and insulting to use it the way you do. God doesn't need anything in the most pure sense of the term, He could do just fine without the entire Creation (and considering the attitude of so many of the posts here He could certainly do a lot better if He wiped out the lot of us), it is really a generous act of love and mercy that He made us at all, wanting creatures made in His own image to participate in His own happiness.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by jar, posted 04-04-2016 11:08 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by ringo, posted 04-04-2016 12:22 PM Faith has responded
 Message 134 by jar, posted 04-04-2016 12:52 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 136 by Phat, posted 04-04-2016 2:08 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 133 of 591 (781367)
04-04-2016 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by ringo
04-04-2016 12:22 PM


Re: Spiritual Gifts
Yep, He could sure do a lot better...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by ringo, posted 04-04-2016 12:22 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 138 of 591 (781497)
04-04-2016 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Phat
04-04-2016 2:08 PM


Re: Spiritual Gifts
I wasn't clear, Phat, I'm not insulted personally, God is. Jar's "ability to think" has succeeded in accomplishing only the destruction of the truth of the Bible. And unfortunately he may find in the end that he's responsible for the loss of others' faith. I don't envy him that.

You're welcome to the supposed "favor" -- it's just a wearisome task to me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Phat, posted 04-04-2016 2:08 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Phat, posted 04-06-2016 11:45 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 147 of 591 (781690)
04-06-2016 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Phat
04-06-2016 11:45 AM


Re: What Is Literal?
I have a question for you, Faith. Do you believe that it is necessary to believe in a literal Bible as a condition of salvation?

I don't know what the cut-off point is -- that is, how far you can go with not believing parts of it -- but I think it's risky to pick and choose what parts of the Bible you believe to be true as written.

I know that jar doesn't but I'm not sure of jaywells views on it. Also maybe I should clarify what I see as literal.
I once saw a chart where some marketers attempted to explain the difference between Word for Word Literalism and Thought for Thought Literalism. The translation comparison charts show how the authors view each translation on the spectrum.

The term "literalism" can give a false impression so I prefer to say "true as written" -- so a figurative part is to be read figuratively for instance. Otherwise I mean "word for word" it's all to be believed.

Personally I see some Bible stories as parables or lessons.

If it's presented as history it should be read as history and not as a parable. Genesis is all written as history for instance, all of it including the Creation history, the history of Adam and Eve and the Fall, the history of Noah and the Flood. So is Job, Ruth, Esther, Jonah etc., to name a few books people may like to read as if they were fiction.

some say the book is an anthology. Some say that much of it is mythological, but I personally dont see that. I believe that the entire book (or books) is inspired by God....but I'm still having difficulty grasping how God explains things through humans to other humans.

God the Holy Spirit speaks to their spirits and they report what He said in writing.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Phat, posted 04-06-2016 11:45 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-09-2016 2:56 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
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