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Author Topic:   The Marketing Of Christianity
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8042
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 49 of 591 (780974)
03-29-2016 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Phat
03-29-2016 9:53 AM


Re: Christianity 101
quote:
Personally I believe that everyone knows "about" God. How they respond to that knowledge carries more weight than what they say.

Can you see Phat that what you believe tells you nothing about whether it's factually true or not?

You hold a stack of beliefs that I believe to be total nonsense. I can't prove that your beliefs are wrong, all I can do point you at the evidence that has convinced me, but I can't prove you wrong about your beliefs.

But I can prove you wrong about what you believe about me. There is no god. What I know about gods I've found out are man-made fabrications with no supporting evidence.

So given that you're wrong about your belief about me, and what you believe your god has told me to 'know' about him, is it remotely possible that you're wrong about what you belief about your god in general?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 03-29-2016 9:53 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8042
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 163 of 591 (787468)
07-15-2016 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Phat
07-14-2016 9:20 PM


Re: Faith vs Evidence
Phat writes:

In other words, stop being skeptics that require evidence.

In other words stop being rational. Which is, according to you, is a god given gift.

You may never get it...and if you are ultimately wrong, it won't be Gods fault for not providing you with evidence.

Ok, I've become irrational, and god hasn't provided any clues, so now how do I choose the right god to believe in?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Phat, posted 07-14-2016 9:20 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8042
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 176 of 591 (787543)
07-17-2016 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by GDR
07-17-2016 2:52 AM


Re: Faith vs Evidence and the fruits to know truth by.
GDR writes:

In either case those are our beliefs and a matter of faith.

You're trying to make an equivalence that doesn't exist. Please stop doing it - I know it means you feel better about your beliefs but it's an error.

It's not a matter of faith that I think evolution is the force that created empathy, it's a matter of evidence.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by GDR, posted 07-17-2016 2:52 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by GDR, posted 07-17-2016 10:39 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8042
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 178 of 591 (787549)
07-17-2016 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by GDR
07-17-2016 10:39 AM


Re: Faith vs Evidence and the fruits to know truth by.
GDR writes:

C'mon, do you really think that saying that makes me feel better about my beliefs. It has absolutely no impact on how I feel about my beliefs.

Ok, for whatever reason you're doing it, stop it! It's not true.

People do not believe or have faith in biological processes.

What you call evidence is simply a record of how empathy has evolved in the world.

Yeh, that is what we call evidence.

Mind you, the evidence as far as I can see only applies when there is some form of link in the gene pool.

Not true.

Also, there is a big difference for feeling sorry for people in far flung cultures that we never encounter and actually sacrificially giving in order to help them.

No there isn't - it's exactly the same thing.

I'm fine with the idea that it has evolved over time,

Then what on earth are you objecting too?

but whether it simply evolved from non intelligent root causes or an intelligent one is a matter of belief that can't be proven in either case. So, it is a matter of faith in what it is that we believe.

This is utterly irrelevant. If you accept that empathy evolved exactly like every other emotion, there's nothing left to argue about - we're an evolved species like everything else around us, after that you can believe what you like about it. But you can't say that your belief in god whispering in your ear is the equivalent of science's understanding of a biological process.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by GDR, posted 07-17-2016 10:39 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by GDR, posted 07-18-2016 4:21 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8042
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 181 of 591 (787593)
07-18-2016 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by GDR
07-18-2016 4:21 PM


Re: Faith vs Evidence and the fruits to know truth by.
GDR writes:

Sure. The question I'm debating is why that evolutionary process came into existence.

No you're not, you're equating a belief in God with a belief in evolution. You know better than to do that - god knows it's been explained often enough to you - but you revert to dogma every time.


Wrong. There is a biog difference between reading about people suffering in Africa and feeling sorry for them as opposed to feeling sorry for them and opening up your wallet and doing something about

There is no difference at all. Feeling sorry is the instictive, primitive, universal, human reaction. Doing something about it engages a younger part of our brain that deals in rational thinking. Some people conclude that nothing can be done, others dig wells, some bung a few quid their way to salve their concsience, others attempt to convert them in order to save their souls and buy themselves a place in heaven.

Sociopaths excluded, we all feel the same but have different ways of coping with it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by GDR, posted 07-18-2016 4:21 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8042
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 185 of 591 (788645)
08-03-2016 3:53 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by Phat
08-02-2016 7:24 PM


Re: prayer and fasting.
Phat writes:

Because prayer and fasting denies the flesh and willfully feeds the Spirit living within us.

What???


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Phat, posted 08-02-2016 7:24 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8042
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 257 of 591 (790681)
09-03-2016 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by Phat
08-30-2016 4:44 PM


Re: Christianity 101
Phat writes:

So whats so incredulous about that?

CS Lewis is just making shit up like everyone else in the game.

I'm going to shout this bit so you hear it

HE HAS NO SPECIAL KNOWLEDGE OF GOD

He's a story writer - he likes a good story. Why do you ascribe special insights to celebrity? Is it because there's nothing else?

What about Simon Greenleaf?

Does he have a special relationship with god that gives him knowledge you don't have? If so how and why?

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Phat, posted 08-30-2016 4:44 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8042
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 295 of 591 (792043)
10-01-2016 11:00 AM


So much for the revealed truth......

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8042
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 301 of 591 (792053)
10-02-2016 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 300 by jar
10-01-2016 7:52 PM


Re: repeating old material
Jar writes:

I subscribe to those statements of Faith outlined in the Nicene Creed. I believe they are true; but I also understand that I could well be wrong and believe it is really unimportant whether they are factual or not.

So you believe in one god that will judge us - the Christian god - the resurection, heaven, holy ghosts etc, but you don't think it matters whether it's true or a bunch of myths?

There's any number of ways believers can delude themselves it seems.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by jar, posted 10-01-2016 7:52 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by Phat, posted 10-02-2016 4:18 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 304 by jar, posted 10-02-2016 8:55 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8042
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 303 of 591 (792055)
10-02-2016 4:42 AM
Reply to: Message 302 by Phat
10-02-2016 4:18 AM


Re: repeating old material
Phat writes:

I believe in One God because it logically makes sense. Only One is needed.

You can be forgiven for beliving in "a" god - at least until we know more about how our universe works - but you also believe in the rediculous idea of religion.

You believe in an interventionist god that requires worship and condemns all other belief systems and their believers. You believe in heaven and, I suppose, hell and all the daft human invented biblical trappings. You could only believe those things by being born where you were born at the time you were born there. (A few hundred years earlier you would have believed in ancestor worship.)

But the issue is that you believe something different to Jar and something different to Faith and something different GDR. All the same damn religion. All supposedly the revealed truth. Well if that not proof that people make up their beliefs I don't know what is.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by Phat, posted 10-02-2016 4:18 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by Phat, posted 10-02-2016 9:33 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 336 by GDR, posted 10-03-2016 2:50 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 470 by Phat, posted 07-07-2017 11:47 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8042
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 306 of 591 (792058)
10-02-2016 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 304 by jar
10-02-2016 8:55 AM


Re: repeating old material
Jar writes:

Not quite.

What you describe is just another version of liberal, pick-and-mix, 'nice', Christianity. That's fine, it's what most here believe. But it isn't what you professed to believe, which was the Nicene Creed.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by jar, posted 10-02-2016 8:55 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by jar, posted 10-02-2016 10:35 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8042
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 6.0


(1)
Message 307 of 591 (792059)
10-02-2016 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 305 by Phat
10-02-2016 9:33 AM


Re: Apply Make-up
Phat writes:

I personally believe that it is also revealed by God through the Holy Spirit.

So the 'truth' has been revealed to you but it's a different 'truth' from GDR's or Jar's or Faith's? That's quite a puzzle isn't it? Are there different 'truths' ??

It is what it is.

It sure is - it's something people made up and self-evidently makes no sense.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Phat, posted 10-02-2016 9:33 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8042
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 310 of 591 (792065)
10-02-2016 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by jar
10-02-2016 10:35 AM


Re: repeating old material
Jar writes:

Have you actually ever read the Nicene Creed?

This comment is getting a little tired don't you think?

Would you like to point out what part of the Nicene Creed I do not believe?

I admit that I leapt to the assumption that you believed the Catholic version which obliges you to also believe that only the one church can remit sins which excludes the majority of the world's population from a pleasant afterlife.

And then there's the fussiness over the resurrection which you prefer to finesse.....


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by jar, posted 10-02-2016 10:35 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 311 by NoNukes, posted 10-02-2016 4:16 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 321 by jar, posted 10-03-2016 8:50 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8042
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 6.0


Message 312 of 591 (792069)
10-02-2016 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 311 by NoNukes
10-02-2016 4:16 PM


Re: repeating old material
NN writes:

There is only one Niocene Creed.

There appear to be at least 2

First Council of Nicea (325)
First Council of Constantinople (381)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed

The second is the one I assumed.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by NoNukes, posted 10-02-2016 4:16 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by NoNukes, posted 10-02-2016 7:53 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 317 by Phat, posted 10-03-2016 4:21 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8042
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 6.0


(1)
Message 316 of 591 (792073)
10-03-2016 2:44 AM
Reply to: Message 313 by NoNukes
10-02-2016 7:53 PM


Re: repeating old material
NN writes:

Right. But as I pointed out, that creed does not put the Catholic Church as the authority for remission of sins.

I suspect that Catholics would disagree with you - their priests profess to be able to do it and I'm not aware that Protestants make that claim. But I accept the big 'C' and little 'c' distinction in the creed.

But that is not the point, Jar says he believes the creed but doesn't think it matters whether it's true or not. I'm not sure what that means, but it sounds like something you could get yourself burned alive for a few centuries ago.

He also doesn't believe in the resurrection - which is a major part of the Christian belief system and the creed. He also says this:

Jar writes:

I see Christianity as the path I have chosen to follow but also understand that the Map is not the Territory. It is not the only path and certainly not the "True" path or even the "Divine" path, but rather the path I am on.

I don't see anywhere in the creed that says that it might not be the truth or the only path. In fact rather the opposite.

We believe [...] In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.

Standard pick-and-mix Christianity.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by NoNukes, posted 10-02-2016 7:53 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
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