The Marketing Of Christianity

Keep in mind that regarding the marketing of Christianity, we all are marketeers. I do not wish to misrepresent you. Of all of the people at EvC, I believe that I understand your beliefs better than anyone else and if i make an incorrect assertion or two, it is not intended to slander or misrepresent you. In this topic, we all have the opportunity to again present our beliefs and our versions of what Christianity is, isn't, should or should not be as WE see it. So allow me to comment on what I think you believe and what you market. If I am wrong, please correct me and I shall also do the same to any of you who challenge and question my beliefs.Regarding your beliefs as stated here at EvC, I agree with some of them and disagree with some of them. Nearly all of the other self proclaimed Christians at this forum have gotten exasperated with you and called you out as to whether you even were a Christian...I know i have been guilty of this.
The reasons for this are largely because of what I have been taught. Keep in mind that this method of critical thinking is not easy for me to use when discussing my sincere deeply held religious beliefs---but I feel comfortable enough at this forum that I can now do it. For many years I could'nt.Let me just say that I have my limits. I would never allow myself to be taught Christianity by an atheist. This does not mean that I do not respect atheists nor do I regard them as any less of a person than a believer--in fact, many of the atheist critical thinkers(some at this forum) whom I have encountered are much more intelligent than most of the Christians--in my particular chapter, anyway. One of our members, a self avowed Christian who recently left the forum, (I have faith she will return, however ) is quite knowledgeable regarding church history..but I do not think that she represents Christianity the way that Jesus would want her to. If anyone new to our forum was reading one of her debates where she gets frustrated, they would wonder why it was even worth it to become a Christian. To be fair, I too have occasionally given Jesus a bad rap through my behavior. I quite honestly believe that evil exists and is potentially like a virus to the human soul. Of course God set it up this way. I believe that God created the possibility of evil, that angelic beings first actualized this possibility and later on humans inherited the virus. You have talked about Original Sin and IIRC you detested the product. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you believe that humans were given an awareness of the difference between good & evil and the responsibility to choose properly. I of course was always taught that we are sinners by nature and that only through Jesus sacrifice are we even able to become holy.(or at least polite ) I will say that I agree with you regarding the necessity of personal responsibility and I also agree with you in that much of what is marketed teaches people to place the blame on Satan, a sinful nature, or perhaps a disease. I always jokingly refer to you as "The Apostle To The Atheists" because quite frankly a person is not even required to be a believer in any sort of God in order to fulfill this mandate. And Frankly I respect and agree with this mandate...the difference being that I need prayer and communion with God on a daily basis.Here is a question: What is the difference between a man who believes in God yet admits he is likely wrong regarding his understanding, and an agnostic?

I don't believe that we humans find God...Although one could argue that many make up a God to suit them. I believe that God finds us. I believe that GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen...has a desire to have a relationship with humanity. Of course this does not negate our personal responsibility to and for each other---if anything it enhances it.

Is there any reason to think that at least one person on this entire planet is at least more likely to actually know and be in communion with the Creator of all seen and unseen and is not creating a God in their own mind? Likely but not absolutely necessary. I can think of at least one human in History who actually had the correct God in mind. Of course this too is only my belief....there would be no way to prove such an assertion. Quite a passionate response! Care to fully explain why?I have a hunch that this ties in with the belief you have expressed that you don't want anyone "paying your debt" or "saving" you. The old honor system rears its ugly head. Only a vain and proud man would resist admitting that they need any help in my mind. But of course I'm not indicting you. I recall when i got myself into debt due to a gambling addiction and was encouraged by you to pay it all back---even though I would have had nothing for the rest of my life. When I instead chose to seek relief from a bankruptcy court I lost a lot of your respect. (I felt so, anyway) For the record i agree with personal responsibility but if the king forgives my debt I would be foolish to refuse His help. There is even a parable about that somewhere.

Note that i said "humanity"...I did NOT say some of humanity. The warlord has enough for everyone but it is the individuals right to eat or not to eat.

Do you personally believe largely the same as you did ten years ago, or have some of the experiences in your life--trials and tribulations--people whom you have met---increased,decreased,or changed your personal beliefs in any significant way?I know that when my father had cancer, he avoided attending church because he didn't want people feeling "sorry" for him and making a big fuss over his daily battle. His faith was very personal--What I saw in him, though were his selfless actions on behalf of his family. He never complained about his condition (Lymphoma) which taught me that one could be a person of faith without relying on church in general. To me, he was a person of faith because he always thought of his family first--he never complained though he was at times in great pain. He ultimately passed at age 60--far too young, in my opinion. It makes me wonder what people who have life threatening diseases such as Cancer think about God in general. Edited by Phat, : appalin spallin Edited by Phat, : better link

I cannot speak in general, but only specifically. Each individual has a personal story and a personal experience in their lives. It is true that many who call themselves Christian behave quite un-Christlike. It is also true that many of the other groups are in fact Christlike despite having no belief in Him.Two scriptures come to mind. As I have said before, there have been many Christians at this forum who knew lots of scripture yet who did not seem to have love. God is love. I pray that we all receive a bigger dose of this. Hate is itself a cancer. The Holy Spirit is an effective antidote. It appears that even in John there is support for Matthew 25! I never understood why people disrespect the gospel Of John.

All that I can see is the idea that God finds us. You may disagree with the belief that we are "lost" by default...though John seems to suggest that the sheep need a shepherd.You may argue that it is about what we do and that in this context an atheist, for example, is not lost as long as they are doing for others. Am I close?

Have you ever prayed for evidence?

this reminds me of another post that you had in reply to Coyote.

quote:

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The Christian "Are you saved?" con is dishonest for many reasons.
First, even if there is an afterlife, no one will know if they are saved or not until after they are judged.

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Second, it is too often marketed to the young, those who's brains have not yet developed.

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Third, it is most often marketed in a culture where critical thinking and questioning is not just discouraged, it is condemned.

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Fourth, there is no recourse; if someone dies and is judged and they find they are NOT saved, saying "But I got saved when I was eight" carries no weight.
BUT...
in reality, it is a great, very productive con. As long as the snake oil salesman evangelist reports his income and pays his taxes, the US Constitution protects his right to market a product (salvation) with NO product liability.

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Do you believe that there should be a way to tell? Should anyone care whether or not they are saved?
Personally I believe that everyone knows "about" God. How they respond to that knowledge carries more weight than what they say.

Perhaps I should clarify. When I assert that everyone knows about God, all I am saying is that everyone has read the stories and heard the marketing speech. Tangle knows the stories. he may not buy them but he certainly knows the product attempting to be sold. The belief that there is a Creator of all seen and unseen is known. For that matter, the myth of the "flying spaghetti monster" is also known...at least by those of us here. All that I was suggesting is that you know about my beliefs. I was not suggesting that everyone "knows" God...I was suggesting that everyone "knows about" God. I already knew that! I still love you Tangle...glad you joined our conversation. In this I agree with you in that you will never have the evidence that you seek until after this life.

I know that Fred Phelps was delusional. I know that the KKK are delusional. Heck, many of the TV preachers are delusional, in my book. My question is this: Must belief counteract responsibility?

Our fair lady Asgara brought up another question percolating in my mind. Why is it that people think God causes tragedies? Do you personally believe that He does? Why or why not?

I hoped that you would return. OK lets talk tragedies. The Isaiah scripture is well known. One thing that bothers me though. If God chooses to wipe out certain people, nations, or planets due to His wrath against sin, what keeps Him from wiping us all out today? After all, we all sin.

Actually...they do. Deuteronomy 30:1-20 offers up the full warrenty.Logically I dont see God micromanaging the weather based upon the sins of America...or any other nation, for that matter. What I do see is that people will reap what they sow.

In your opinion, what should America do to collectively repent? Back in the old days they did something with sackcloth and ashes and the King himself would lead the repentance ..perhaps by fasting, as an example. I'd have to read more of the Old Testament to get a clearer picture.Personally I believe that everyone needs to atone for their shortcomings regularly. Its not just that gays need to repent of a "sinful lifestyle", for example. Heterosexuals have just as many quirky bent thoughts, lusts, and behaviors that could warrant repentance. Lets take America in general. What do we need to repent of? Some claim we saved the world and owe nobody anything. Others claim that we were blessed with prosperity as a nation and should be more generous rather than spending so much on our military. How far does repentance go? Shall we all become Amish and throw away our smartphones and raunchy hollywood movies? Should we equate spiritual progress with patriotic far right ideals? After all, Acts seemed far more socialist than it did free market capitalist. WWJD?
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