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Author Topic:   The Marketing Of Christianity
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 38 of 591 (780962)
03-28-2016 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Phat
03-28-2016 10:15 PM


Re: God Unplugged
Phat writes:
Is there any reason to think that at least one person on this entire planet is at least more likely to actually know and be in communion with the Creator of all seen and unseen and is not creating a God in their own mind?
None that I can think of and no way to even test to see if that was possible.
Phat writes:
Likely but not absolutely necessary. I can think of at least one human in History who actually had the correct God in mind. Of course this too is only my belief....there would be no way to prove such an assertion.
But many, many, many folk have made that same claim.
Phat writes:
Quite a passionate response! Care to fully explain why?
I have a hunch that this ties in with the belief you have expressed that you don't want anyone "paying your debt" or "saving" you. The old honor system rears its ugly head. Only a vain and proud man would resist admitting that they need any help in my mind. But of course I'm not indicting you. I recall when i got myself into debt due to a gambling addiction and was encouraged by you to pay it all back---even though I would have had nothing for the rest of my life. When I instead chose to seek relief from a bankruptcy court I lost a lot of your respect. (I felt so, anyway) For the record i agree with personal responsibility but if the king forgives my debt I would be foolish to refuse His help. There is even a parable about that somewhere.
It has nothing to do with responsibility of humans, rather it is that God's responsibility that is at issue.
If a God really were the creator of all, seen and unseen, and then only "finds" some select few, then that God is evil beyond imagination.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Phat, posted 03-28-2016 10:15 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Phat, posted 03-28-2016 10:30 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 42 of 591 (780966)
03-29-2016 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Phat
03-28-2016 10:30 PM


Re: God Unplugged
Phat writes:
Note that i said "humanity"...I did NOT say some of humanity. The warlord has enough for everyone but it is the individuals right to eat or not to eat.
That is not what you said.
Here is what you said in context.
quote:
I don't believe that we humans find God...Although one could argue that many make up a God to suit them. I believe that God finds us. I believe that GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen...has a desire to have a relationship with humanity.
Reread what you wrote and see if you can identify what I find so objectionable.
Phat writes:
I never understood why people disrespect the gospel Of John.
To say that the author of John was a revisionist or that the Gospel of John presents a different Jesus myth than the other Gospels is not being disrespectful; it is simply acknowledging the facts.
Edited by jar, : respond to question about John.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Phat, posted 03-28-2016 10:30 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 03-29-2016 8:59 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 45 of 591 (780969)
03-29-2016 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Phat
03-29-2016 8:59 AM


Re: God Unplugged
You said:
quote:
I don't believe that we humans find God...Although one could argue that many make up a God to suit them. I believe that God finds us. I believe that GOD, Creator of all seen and unseen...has a desire to have a relationship with humanity.
Creator of all seen and unseen.
Why would that God seek out humanity or worse yet, certain humans, instead of pond scum?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 03-29-2016 8:59 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 414 by Phat, posted 06-09-2017 10:39 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 46 of 591 (780970)
03-29-2016 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Phat
03-29-2016 9:25 AM


Re: Christianity 101
Phat writes:
Have you ever prayed for evidence?
Yes, and answers to the questions on the test and an egg that was not runny and many other things.
I did find eggs that were not runny and sometimes answers to the test but never any evidence or even a way to tell if there was evidence of GOD, spirit, soul. impartation, or a relationship with such a creature.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 03-29-2016 9:25 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 03-29-2016 9:53 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 48 of 591 (780973)
03-29-2016 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Phat
03-29-2016 9:53 AM


Re: Christianity 101
Phat writes:
Do you believe that there should be a way to tell? Should anyone care whether or not they are saved?
I can see absolutely no way that anyone can know if they are saved and firmly believe that no one should know they are saved.
Phat writes:
Personally I believe that everyone knows "about" God. How they respond to that knowledge carries more weight than what they say.
And what exactly is the evidence for that belief? When Atheists tell you they do not know about God do you think they are lying? When someone says they know about God and it's not the God you are marketing where is the evidence they might be wrong?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 03-29-2016 9:53 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Phat, posted 03-29-2016 1:07 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 62 of 591 (781007)
03-29-2016 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Faith
03-29-2016 1:49 PM


Re: Hurricane Yahweh
Faith writes:
I recognized 9-11 as God's judgment on America, but it was a very mild judgment, more of a warning. More to come if we don't repent. Well we aren't repenting and I think more has been steadily coming all these years since 9-11. I think God is using Islam to punish Europe, and we're next.
That's a really stupid playground bully of a god you are marketing there Faith; one that's more than happy to punish the weak and innocent instead of persuasion. A coward and clown incapable of behavior acceptable in polite company.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Faith, posted 03-29-2016 1:49 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 03-29-2016 9:56 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 64 of 591 (781013)
03-29-2016 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Phat
03-29-2016 9:56 PM


Re: Hurricane Yahweh
Many of the Gods of the Old Testament were real assholes. The God character in Exodus is a great example, one that changes Pharaohs mind just so she can show off.
That God and so many of the other Old Testament Gods were fearful nasty shallow horrific critters that should be feared.
The God of Ezekiel is slightly different.
Ezekiel is also simply mythology, a fantasy; typical of folk tales and morality plays and mythology. Zeke is a mythology in three parts, and needs to be seen as a whole and not quote mined. In the myth there is first the judgement of Israel, then the judgement of the other Nations and finally a hope of redemption as a conclusion.
You need to place Ezekiel in the proper era and location, Babylon during the captivity. At that time Babylon was a mostly secular, tolerant cosmopolitan city where Jews had opportunities far beyond what they had experience in the past. They found themselves being accepted into the general society as individuals, as Babylonians and the very separateness and exclusiveness that characterized being Israeli was being challenged.
Ezekiel is a call to move away from secularism and inclusion, a call to return to exclusion and separatism and to retreat from the world at large and return to the land Israel and the Temple. It precedes the actual return under Cyrus and the building of the Second Temple.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 03-29-2016 9:56 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 03-29-2016 10:39 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 75 of 591 (781031)
03-30-2016 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Phat
03-29-2016 10:39 PM


Re: Hurricane Yahweh
Phat writes:
Isnt that the same reasoning that a lot of the modern day Christians seek? Exclude ourselves from the Pagan idolaters who worship football, cars, money, and internet porn. exclude and isolate themselves in the walls of the church buildings and build a wall between us and the rest of the world?
Yup, much of today's Christianity, particularly the Christian Cult of Ignorance is exactly like that and of course the exact opposite of what Jesus taught.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 03-29-2016 10:39 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 77 of 591 (781044)
03-30-2016 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Phat
03-30-2016 11:32 AM


Re: God Unplugged
Phat writes:
For one thing Paul got knocked off of his horse and flipped a 180 regarding his opinion towards Christians. For a devout Jew who had always believed in the Creator of all seen and unseen, to even mention Jesus as anything more than human would itself be idolatry, would it not?
Besides...if an unseen voice told me that it was jesus whom I was persecuting, I would check my water supply to make sure it had no alcohol in it..then be forced to identify the source of the voice...God or satan. What other options would Paul have?
But Paul did not get knocked off his horse he just changed sides. That happens. He may well have had an hallucination or epileptic fit or sun stroke or any number of things; plus you are cherry picking the version of the story again. The story changed and evolved over time and there were even contradictory versions.
Phat writes:
Are you saying that God does not favor any one of us any more than He favors a random rabbit in the woods?
The creator of all that is seen and unseen says it was all good. That's not the unknown author of John trying to sell his product but rather what the Bible claims God said.
Why should man rate higher than pond scum EXCEPT that is what humans want to be the fact?
Phat writes:
Do you have any reason to doubt that the "spiritual events" were genuine?
I have no reason to think they were genuine. I have no doubt that Paul thought he had a calling but that only says Paul thought he had a calling not that there really was a calling.
AbE: also, you seem to be inserting the concept of the Trinity, when there is no real reason to think Paul saw Jesus as God and not a god, a separate individual. The Trinity doctrine is much later and begins with the Gnostics.
Edited by jar, : see AbE

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Phat, posted 03-30-2016 11:32 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 03-30-2016 7:15 PM jar has replied
 Message 87 by jaywill, posted 03-31-2016 5:11 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 80 of 591 (781060)
03-30-2016 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Phat
03-30-2016 7:15 PM


Re: God Unplugged
Phat writes:
I have never read the contradictory versions...do you have a link to them?
I posted them here Phat, several times, and you even replied to the posts. A recent example is in What is Christianity? Message 401. If you have never read them it was only by willfully refusing to read those passages that refute a strongly held personal belief.
Phat writes:
Are you saying that "The Bible" is different from "John"? Who wrote the part that supports your argument?
Just as with almost ALL of the stories in the Bible we have no idea who wrote them or edited them or redacted them. But the passage can be found pretty early in the anthology, "31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morningthe sixth day."
The God character does not say humans are pretty good, he says all that he had made was very good and that includes pond scum.
Phat writes:
Do you have any more reason to think the tales were fabricated than you do that the tales were genuine? Why or why not?
Of course I think they were fabricated, particularly when there are examples where any honest person who looks can see that the tales expand and evolve over time and as different folk spin the tale to suit the audience of the period. Like all folk tales they got exaggerated and modified to fit the needs of each reteller.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 03-30-2016 7:15 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 03-31-2016 5:05 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 82 of 591 (781066)
03-31-2016 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Phat
03-31-2016 5:05 AM


on sources and analysis
Phat writes:
Phat writes:
Do you have any more reason to think the tales were fabricated than you do that the tales were genuine? Why or why not?
jar writes:
Of course I think they were fabricated, particularly when there are examples where any honest person who looks can see that the tales expand and evolve over time and as different folk spin the tale to suit the audience of the period. Like all folk tales they got exaggerated and modified to fit the needs of each reteller.
I think you are biased. Lets say for the sake of argument that most of what we read was genuine. Would this change your belief statement in any way?
Genuine and fabricated are not antonyms. Things can be genuine yet wrong, based on truth but exaggerated, remembered incorrectly. I must still go by the evidence as I have laid out to you.
Phat writes:
jar writes:
Just as with almost ALL of the stories in the Bible we have no idea who wrote them or edited them or redacted them.
It depends on whom you ask. There is far from a majority agreement in this area. The International Bible Society has this statement:
quote:
Many people contributed to the writing of the Bible. In fact, the Bible is a diverse collection of writings from about 40 main contributors30 in the Old Testament and 10 in the New Testament.
Some books are actually collections of writings from several authors, not just one. For example, while many people think of David when they think of the book of Psalms, there are individual psalms attributed to Moses, Asaph, a man named Ethan, and the sons of Korah.
Thus, people may not *know* with 100% accuracy who wrote what, yet we are far from clueless in this area. I believe that there are many critics out with an agenda to destroy the importance of the Bible and who thus spread rumors that Jesus is but a myth,Numerous authors and redactors had hidden or ulterior motives to market a wholesale con or to discredit Judaism or to destroy faith in the books...etc etc etc. So I disagree with your assessment.
The International Bible Society is certainly not an unbiased source or a reasonable one when studying the Bible critically so their position is hardly convincing. Their Statement of Faith is sufficient to disqualify them as a reasonable source since they begin with the assumption of the answer they want.
You did read their Statement of Faith didn't you? How can you possibly trust an organization to investigate the origin of the Bible stories that begins by stating the conclusion? They are a perfect example of the Christian Cult of Ignorance.
Phat writes:
jar writes:
The God character does not say humans are pretty good, he says all that he had made was very good and that includes pond scum.
How about cancer cells? How about the Ebola Virus? The common cold virus? Polio? The list goes on....do you get my point? Sounds like this God of yours is against humanity and is vile and evil!
Phat, it is not what I say, it is what the Bible says. And yes, often the God(s) of the Bible ARE vile and evil.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 03-31-2016 5:05 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 03-31-2016 9:49 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 84 of 591 (781070)
03-31-2016 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Phat
03-31-2016 9:49 AM


Re: on sources and analysis
Phat writes:
Fair enough. Of course, I could also claim that a source in which you quote is biased...but await your link. Do you have a source from a well regarded "expert" that states that we don't have a clue who wrote much of the Bible?
Actually Phat, almost all of the non-Christian Cult of Ignorance are aware of that fact. Whether or not they are well regarded is irrelevant. What is important is the evidence. And the facts are that we simply don't have any original material, period and that what we do have is often contradictory, shows signs of evolution, has all the characteristics of classic folk tales and mythology. What is important is to make sure that the source does not start with the conclusion like the Christian Cult of Ignorance always does.
Phat writes:
OK, lets talk GOD then. The God of the Nicene Creed. IIRC you see GOD this way:
The important point there is only that once again, the Nicene Creed is an example of humans creating a God, something we can describe and also changing it and revising it as need arose.
Phat writes:
Do you know where the Trinity Doctrine originated?
It evolved over time and reached something like what we market today around the 4th Century AD. It is definitely extra Biblical and in fact was more or less incidental and simply a tool of the politics of the day, a way to exclude those you opposed.
It's similar to the evolution of the importance of the Holy Spirit which was the last attribute added.
Phat writes:
Why is it that people have a hard time with the 3 in 1 concept as a threat to monotheism?
If I state that there is a sun, light,(sunlight) and heat(created through thermal energy from the sun) it seems easy to understand that I am still talking about and referring to one sun.
It's not just a threat to monotheism (actually it totally contradicts the idea of monotheism) it is that it really doesn't make much sense. Your example is a great one since it demonstrates the basic contradiction of the Trinity concept. In addition, neither heat or light are the sun.
To really be accurate, the Trinity concept says there are three separate suns that are all one sun.
Jess don't work.
Originally there was no Trinity concept. At the time Matthew was likely written three separate individuals would have been the common understanding. In Matthew you find the Baptismal formula, In the name of The Father, the Son and The Holy Ghost (that last bit will become important later on).
In early writings the Trinity was God, word and wisdom and they pretty much meant just that, god, scripture and using your brain.
In the early Gnostic sects there was God and from God emanated Christ and Wisdom (and a whole bunch of other "Mysteries"). Tertullian of Carthage (2nd and 3rd Century AD) was the first known example to use the Latin term Trinitas but the concept was still that there were three divine personages or identities.
Even at the First Council of Nicaea (4th Century AD) it was not really an issue and there the decision was that God and Christ were separate but both unified. It was more a case of WHO vs WHAT. Christ was who he was, but God was what he was. The fact that they also said God was who she was and God was what she was was simply never addressed.
Also, at that time the Holy Spirit was just plain left out so what Nicaea produced was actually a Duality and not a Trinity.
Adding in the Holy Spirit really first shows up with Athanasius of Alexandria (3rd and 4th Century AD) and even there it was only related to Baptism. The divinity of the Holy Spirit and actual creation of the Trinity Concept as we market it came even later and its divinity is mostly based on the one passage making blasphemy of the Holy Spirit an unforgivable sin (interesting blaspheming God or the Christ are forgivable).
It's only in 381 at the Council of Constantinople that the Holy Spirit gets added to the Nicene Creed.
But the concept was never intended to be a reasonable or rational subject, rather it was simply a tool to use against perceived heresies.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Phat, posted 03-31-2016 9:49 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Phat, posted 03-31-2016 12:17 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 86 of 591 (781075)
03-31-2016 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Phat
03-31-2016 12:17 PM


down the hole yet again.
Phat writes:
To some of us, the concept of truth and/or belief are always relative to the individual. Thus we could also say that various clubs are relative to their members--as well as club bylaws and customs. Can any one religion or club claim Original status and label the rest as heretical?
Of course; every religion and club make that claim and does label others as heretical.
Phat writes:
Do you personally feel as if belief and practice are strictly between the individual and GOD as they understand Him(Her,etc) or even strictly themselves?
What does the evidence show?
Phat writes:
What would be the traits of a "good Christian Chapter" in your opinion?
the same traits as a good Muslim chapter or good Buddhist chapter or good Hindu chapter or good Taoist chapter or good Atheist chapter or ...Feed the hungry, comfort the sorrowful, teach the children, clothe the naked, heal the sick, protect the environment ...
Phat writes:
You always favored the Book Of Common Prayer, IIRC. What made you decide to join the Episcopal Church?
Joe Wood.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Phat, posted 03-31-2016 12:17 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 89 of 591 (781098)
03-31-2016 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by jaywill
03-31-2016 5:11 PM


Re: God Unplugged
Learn to read.
jaywill writes:
Could you please point out the word "horse" in the passages about Paul on the road to Damascus ?
It was Phat you said Paul got knocked off his horse, not I. Horses are not mentioned in any of the versions of the fable.
jaywill writes:
So an epileptic fit changed Saul of Tarsus from a persecutor of the Christian church to an apostle ?
So a well planned hallucination ( enacted by who ?? ) changed Saul 180 degrees around from a persecutor of the Christians to a disciple / evangelist / apostle and author of some 13 or so books of the New Testament ?
Learn to read. What I have said is we don't know and will likely never know why Paul switched sides.
jaywill writes:
Please produce three notable versions of the testimony and explain how it evolved. Show us the embellishments over time and explain its alleged "evolution".
Please learn to read. I have already done that several times. There is even a link in Message 80.
jaywill writes:
What benefit did he derive from a delusional calling, except a life of much suffering, persecution, imprisonment, betrayal, criticism, and ultimately beheading from Nero ?
The same Spirit of Jesus Paul experienced many of us experience. We can vouch that he pioneered deeply into this reality.
You are going through a lot of effort to persuade yourself that the New Testament is not worthy of taking seriously.
Again, learn to read. I do take the New Testament seriously, with all the contradictions and errors of fact.
Many folk suffer for their delusions, and I do not doubt Paul believed strongly. We can see the struggles he went through as some of those beliefs were shown to be false.
jaywill writes:
The Spirit of God = the Spirit of Christ = Christ = the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead. That is the Trinity
Certainly a position held by many but still pretty meaningless it seems.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by jaywill, posted 03-31-2016 5:11 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by jaywill, posted 03-31-2016 7:46 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 92 of 591 (781101)
03-31-2016 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by jaywill
03-31-2016 7:55 PM


Learn how to read. There was a link as I told you in that message. Did you click on the link? Did you read the material supplied.
I'm really trying to keep this simple for you so I will post the link yet again.
Here once again is the sentence: I posted them here Phat, several times, and you even replied to the posts. A recent example is in What is Christianity? Message 401.
The links are the twp highlighted in clue, the first is to the thread and the second is to the specific post. Message 401 begins with the evolution of the Great Commission over time as it gets retold by unknown authors and then covers the various versions of Paul's fable. At first as in so many folk tales it is pretty simple and he just says that he saw Jesus as "one born out of time" and that the revelation was from God not Jesus.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by jaywill, posted 03-31-2016 7:55 PM jaywill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 03-31-2016 9:39 PM jar has replied

  
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