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Author
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Topic: The Marketing Of Christianity
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 97 of 591 (781117)
03-31-2016 10:58 PM
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Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
03-31-2016 9:39 PM
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Re: Progressive Marketing
Phat writes: The question in my mind is basically the motivation of the groups involved. Okay, you can have that question. But I cannot see anyway to find that out or how it changes in anyway what they did.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 95 by Phat, posted 03-31-2016 9:39 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 98 by Phat, posted 04-01-2016 6:05 AM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 101 of 591 (781143)
04-01-2016 9:09 AM
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Reply to: Message 98 by Phat
04-01-2016 6:05 AM
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Re: Progressive Marketing
Phat writes: I would argue that because of their Source, the content of their message is also truthful. You might argue that there was no reason for the message to be changed. But so far there is no evidence available to determine the source or that things from some specific source should be truthful. There were many reasons for messages to get changed. Paul for example was an apocalyptic the end is nigh marketer. He believed the report that Jesus said the end would come within the lifetime of those then living. But it didn't come. And so logic, reason and reality forced the message to change and the concept of what a Messiah was to be revised. The question is "What is the work necessary?"
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 98 by Phat, posted 04-01-2016 6:05 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 107 of 591 (781158)
04-01-2016 12:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 106 by Phat
04-01-2016 12:04 PM
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Re: Spiritual Gifts
Phat writes: jar believes that the church is called to help everyone whether they profess Christianity or not.(correct me if I'm wrong, jar) Does everyone see wisdom in this or do we spend our money and time on Christians first? When Jesus fed the multitude he did not first ask their affiliation. Have I ever mentioned Matthew 25? In that story it is the Goats who are the followers, the Christians. You should help those you can help, feed the hungry on the streets of Denver first whether or not they are Christians. AbE: and of course Paul also said that prophesy was pretty much worthless with charity.
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1 Corinthians 13King James Version (KJV) 13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. 4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
Edited by jar, : see AbE
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 106 by Phat, posted 04-01-2016 12:04 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 108 by Phat, posted 04-01-2016 4:55 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 111 of 591 (781181)
04-01-2016 5:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 108 by Phat
04-01-2016 4:55 PM
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Re: Spiritual Gifts
Phat writes: Charity is also translated as Love,and the word prophecy essentially means foreseeing...an intuitive word versus an educated (or random) guess. Actually Paul was familiar with the word love but he did not say faith hope and love, he said Charity. And Prophecy in the Biblical sense is only foreseeing in the language of the Christian Cult of Ignorance. Prophecy was a direct memo from God, a warning, do this and I will do that and very much the result of and educated assessment and NOT intuition. Today the concept of Spiritual Gifts is just another con game and nonsense.
Phat writes: This gets back to the question of whether we are loving God simply by feeding a down and out street guy without attempting to speak into his life and market our religion on him. Yes, over time the concepts that Jesus taught did evolve into proselytizing and product marketing.
Phat writes: Of course if a marketeer believes that humanity is not lost,that people are ok the way they are, and that carrying in groceries and making a beer run are approved by GOD, I suppose I can see the point. Whether or not humanity is lost is totally irrelevant. The question is whether or not people are hungry, sorrowful, naked, sick, without shelter ...
Phat writes: One question might be whether the church should be any different than habitat for humanity or any other secular organization. The church should be just like them except on steroids. The churches works should shine so brightly that people ask "Why?" Edited by jar, : fix quote box
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 108 by Phat, posted 04-01-2016 4:55 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 117 of 591 (781273)
04-03-2016 9:55 AM
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Reply to: Message 115 by ringo
04-02-2016 11:45 AM
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Re: What is the work necessary?
ringo writes: The question is: What is the baptism for? Is it an end in itself? Or is it intended to help you make better sandwiches? That's a great, great question since in many of the traditional Christian sects, baptism is far more than a dunk and a blessing. In the major Christian sects Baptism (and the later Confirmation) is a contractual agreement between the laity (all the members) made before God. It is about doing and not about washing away sins. Baptism is done in those sects when the child is young, too young to understand the contract and so it is the laity that in fact accepts the duties for the child until that child is old enough to assume the responsibility (Confirmation). And that at the Confirmation not only the child accepts the responsibility but the laity also reaffirms their commitment. Here is the section I included in my story of my religious growth found at Belief Statement - jar.
quote:
After that the service picked up where it had almost begun and it moved right along. We had the collect and the readings, then the presentation of the candidates. The Bishop began the questioning, Do you reaffirm your renunciation of evil? I do, we replied. Do you renew your commitment to Jesus Christ? I do, and with God's grace I will follow him as my Savior and Lord. The Bishop then turned to the audience and asked, Will you who witness these vows do all in your power to support these persons in their life in Christ? We will., came the reply. We, the candidates and all of the people then repeated those Baptismal vows that our parents and God-parents had taken for us so long before.
Bishop Do you believe in God the Father?
People I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
Bishop Do you believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?
People I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again.
He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
Bishop Do you believe in God the Holy Spirit?
People I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.
Bishop Will you continue in the apostles' teaching and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in the prayers?
People I will, with God's help.
Bishop Will you persevere in resisting evil, and, whenever you fall into sin, repent and return to the Lord?
People I will, with God's help.
Bishop Will you proclaim by word and example the Good News of God in Christ?
People I will, with God's help.
Bishop Will you seek and serve Christ in all persons, loving your neighbor as yourself?
People I will, with God's help.
Bishop Will you strive for justice and peace among all people, and respect the dignity of every human being?
People I will, with God's help. Then the Bishop laid hands on each of us, and in a soft voice, leaning down toward each one, Strengthen, O Lord, your servant N. with your Holy Spirit; empower him for your service; and sustain him all the days of his life. Amen.
Note that almost all of the contract involves what the individual(s) is(are) to do and nowhere is there any mention washing away sins or being saved or any get outta hell free card. Baptism and Confirmation are charges to act, to do. Edited by jar, : let out an at Edited by jar, : appalin churse of warding ... reaffirms not confirms
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 115 by ringo, posted 04-02-2016 11:45 AM | | ringo has seen this message but not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 120 of 591 (781299)
04-03-2016 9:58 PM
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Reply to: Message 119 by Phat
04-03-2016 2:37 PM
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Re: What is the work necessary?
Phat writes: In any case it takes action. jar was right. its about what you do. Is there a difference between feeding somebody with Jesus help and feeding somebody because that person is hungry?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 119 by Phat, posted 04-03-2016 2:37 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 129 of 591 (781358)
04-04-2016 11:08 AM
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Reply to: Message 128 by Bliyaal
04-04-2016 11:04 AM
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Re: Spiritual Gifts
The whole idea of a god that has needs is ridiculous and I find it amazing that anyone could even imagine such a pathetic little critter.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 128 by Bliyaal, posted 04-04-2016 11:04 AM | | Bliyaal has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 131 by Faith, posted 04-04-2016 12:09 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 134 of 591 (781369)
04-04-2016 12:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 131 by Faith
04-04-2016 12:09 PM
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Re: Spiritual Gifts
Faith writes: Jaywill wasn't using the word "needs" for God as we would use it for people, it is false and insulting to use it the way you do. Biblical Christians and the Christian Cult of Ignorance certainly don't use words with an reasonable meaning it seems. But the god you and jaywill tend to market is still pitiful and silly.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 131 by Faith, posted 04-04-2016 12:09 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 145 of 591 (781676)
04-06-2016 12:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 143 by Phat
04-06-2016 11:52 AM
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Re: Who Cares? Does It Matter?
Phat writes: I would imagine that the upper room bunch cared and felt that prayer and fasting mattered. They wanted to be on the cutting edge of Gods big moves regarding the future of humanity. But the stories do tell us something about what the leadership did, for example the appointed Stephen a s a deacon and his job was to feed and clothe and comfort the poor and needy of Jerusalem. Not not the poor and needy Jews of Jerusalem but the poor and needy. Jerusalem at that time was a cosmopolitan city with far more than just Jews and Stephen like Jesus was not sent to see to the needs of just Jews. Prayer and fasting may the praying and fasting folk feel better but has never fed the hungry, clothed the naked, comforted the sorrowful, healed the sick, educated the children, sheltered the homeless or much of anything else.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 143 by Phat, posted 04-06-2016 11:52 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 148 of 591 (781691)
04-06-2016 4:04 PM
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Reply to: Message 146 by Phat
04-06-2016 2:33 PM
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prayer and fasting.
Phat writes: jar writes: Prayer and fasting may the praying and fasting folk feel better but has never fed the hungry, clothed the naked, comforted the sorrowful, healed the sick, educated the children, sheltered the homeless or much of anything else.
I would argue that prayer and fasting both help in these matters though you may scientifically have an argument. Please explain how prayer or fasting feeds the hungry, clothes the naked, shelters the homeless, comforts the sorrowful, heals the sick, educates the children or anything else that simply feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, sheltering the homeless, comforting the sorrowful, healing the sick, educating the children or anything else even without prayer or fasting? What, other than marketing, does prayer or fasting add?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 146 by Phat, posted 04-06-2016 2:33 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 149 by Faith, posted 04-06-2016 4:34 PM | | jar has replied | | | Message 151 by Phat, posted 04-07-2016 10:44 AM | | jar has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 182 by Phat, posted 08-02-2016 7:24 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 150 of 591 (781703)
04-06-2016 4:39 PM
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Reply to: Message 149 by Faith
04-06-2016 4:34 PM
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Re: prayer and fasting.
Faith writes: Prayer and fasting bring God closer to us and make his will clearer -- that has been my experience -- so if He's calling for a particular work for the poor for instance, we'll get the message more clearly what He wants us to do. Please explain how prayer or fasting feeds the hungry, clothes the naked, shelters the homeless, comforts the sorrowful, heals the sick, educates the children or anything else that simply feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, sheltering the homeless, comforting the sorrowful, healing the sick, educating the children or anything else even without prayer or fasting? So are you claiming that Christians are unable to see that there are people that are hungry. naked. homeless, sorrowful, sick and ignorant without being told or that Christians should only be feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, sheltering the homeless, comforting the sorrowful, healing the sick, educating the children that they are designated through prayer and fasting?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 149 by Faith, posted 04-06-2016 4:34 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 157 of 591 (782109)
04-16-2016 1:18 PM
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Reply to: Message 156 by ringo
04-16-2016 12:36 PM
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Re: Spiritual Gifts
Plus often when it comes to determining truth there is also evidence and that is far more solid than reasoning. For example when it comes to the topic of the Marketing of Christianity there is sufficient evidence that only by misusing reasoning could anyone deny that Christianity is a product created by many folk but not Jesus and that it has been marketed most often by coercion, force, fiat, propaganda, innuendo and politics.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 156 by ringo, posted 04-16-2016 12:36 PM | | ringo has seen this message but not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 169 of 591 (787510)
07-16-2016 9:41 AM
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Reply to: Message 168 by Phat
07-16-2016 1:57 AM
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Re: Faith vs Evidence and the fruits to know truth by.
Phat writes: My belief hinges on faith. You may someday get an opportunity to see the subjective evidence by watching power come through a person of faith. And just what does the power look like? Is it different than the power of a Totoro? What does the power accomplish? Does it clothe the naked in different clothes, feed the hungry with different food, comfort the sorrowful with some special comfort, heal the sick with so special medicine, teach the children some unique knowledge, protect the helpless with some magic shield....?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 168 by Phat, posted 07-16-2016 1:57 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 183 of 591 (788638)
08-02-2016 7:58 PM
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Reply to: Message 182 by Phat
08-02-2016 7:24 PM
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Re: prayer and fasting.
Read what you wrote Phat. It is all just word salad and not one of your responses actually addressed the questions asked except as bumper sticker platitudes with no real meaning.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 182 by Phat, posted 08-02-2016 7:24 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 184 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-02-2016 8:52 PM | | jar has seen this message but not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 187 of 591 (788650)
08-03-2016 8:55 AM
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Reply to: Message 186 by NoNukes
08-03-2016 8:43 AM
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Re: prayer and fasting.
Two of the main purposes of prayer and fasting are setting aside time for introspection, for examining YOUR past behavior and deciding how to change YOUR future behavior, and as a tool to build empathy, to better understand what life without comforts is like. Prayer and fasting are meant to help you improve you. Hopefully the two will also help encourage you to do for others.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 186 by NoNukes, posted 08-03-2016 8:43 AM | | NoNukes has seen this message but not replied |
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