The Marketing Of Christianity

Phat writes: I take the truth statement: Somebody will win and switch its true implication into my own statement, namely I will win.

You can only win if you bet on Zeus.

Im still trying to figure out how logical people have concluded that the probability of a Creator of all seen and unseen is small.

Just because Hawking thinks the universe could spontaneously create itself out of nothing does not convince me.

Phat writes: Im still trying to figure out how logical people have concluded that the probability of a Creator of all seen and unseen is small.

Because we have exactly no evidence for this being - none. Why would anyone believe in something without a shred of evidence?How does that contain any logic?

Just because Hawking thinks the universe could spontaneously create itself out of nothing does not convince me.

But nothing would convince you Phat. You just believe.

Hawking just provides further evidence that a god is not necessary

But nothing would convince you Phat. You just believe.

I'm convinced that much of it is psychological. Believers tend to be made up of people who need and/or want and prefer to have a Father figure...a protector...a rich uncle....whereas non-believers couldn't wait to grow up and leave the nest. They are more adult thinking.

Phat writes: Im still trying to figure out how logical people have concluded that the probability of a Creator of all seen and unseen is small.

You should be thinking about why you care about logic or probability at all.

Phat writes: Believers tend to be made up of people who need and/or want and prefer to have a Father figure...a protector...a rich uncle....whereas non-believers couldn't wait to grow up and leave the nest. They are more adult thinking.

Sorry Phat, I am a believer. Yet you find my beliefs make you uncomfortable. It is not a matter of believer versus non-believer.

There are different beliefs though; for example some pray for God to help them; even Jesus prayed for God to keep him from being crucified. But he got no response or reprieve.

Read Matt 26:36-42.

quote:

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36 Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.

37 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy.

38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?

41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

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There is a lesson in that scripture...I feel it...but having read it, all I see is that Jesus wanted his friends to agree with Him

Amazing.

well there is more to it than that, but i was in a hurry to get to work when I replied...what strikes me is that jesus never asks his father for anything special...He merely says if it be possible....but thats not how most people pray.

Phat writes: well there is more to it than that, but i was in a hurry to get to work when I replied...what strikes me is that jesus never asks his father for anything special...He merely says if it be possible....but thats not how most people pray.

You are likely correct; it is probably NOT how most people pray. But it is one of the examples of how we should pray that is attributed directly to Jesus.

Are their other examples of how people should pray that are attributed to Jesus?

Yes,

Matthew 6:9-13 (NIV) writes: 9 “This, then, is how you should pray: “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us today our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.

’

What gets me is the emphasis on Gods will being done rather than our own. Too many of Biblical Christians prayers are for God to grant us our will rather than for us to allow His.

Thanks for refocusing my attention on this matter. For all of his swagger and bluster, RC Sproul doesn't focus on this...or does he? (Lemme check)
drat! Yes he does, but he charges $2.00 just for me to listen to the lecture...so fuggedaboudit. You and I can discuss this stuff for free! The nerve!

Ligonier writes: The Lord's Prayer series (all 10 lectures) $20.00

Edited by Phat, : added quote from Sprouls wallet

I hate that NIV version. The "deliver us from the evil one" simply does not have the impact of deliver us from evil. The former is yet another example of what I call "Not My Fault" Christianity while the latter acknowledges that the evil is US, not some outside force.

Another reminder is the Dismissal found in the Book of Common Prayer; the final end to each service.

quote:

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And now, Father, send us out
to do the work you have given us to do,
to love and serve you
as faithful witnesses of Christ our Lord.
To him, to you, and to the Holy Spirit,
be honor and glory, now and for ever. Amen.

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J.Vernon McGee discussed these prayers at length. (For free too, I might add! )
Let Us Pray:
A Study of the Lord’s Prayer

One thing that I noted is McGee's point about Jesus being unique in one regard:

quote:

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As we go into the study, we come first of all to the statement, “Our Father.” This was startling to the Old Testament saint, for as far as we know he never, under any conditions, called God “Father” in a personal way. It is true that Israel, as a nation, was called a son.

God commanded Moses to tell Pharaoh that Israel was His son and to let him go. That is repeated again in Deuteronomy. But you do not find individual Israelites calling God “Father.” He was the Father of the nation, of His people, but the individual was the son of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. So they did not approach God as a father.

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edited...found a rebuttal to my assertion

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Phat writes: Jesus also always referred to GOD as "My Father" rather than "Our father"... wonder why?

He also often referred to "your Father" so I don't see any significance beyond grammar.

you caught me before I corrected myself after reading further. I got thrown off by something McGee said.

This whole idea of personal responsibility works for me to a point, but I am liberal enough to tend to want to ask for favor rather than simply allow Gods will to be done. Perhaps I dont trust that His Will is for me to have to struggle.