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Author | Topic: The Marketing Of Christianity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member Posts: 18854 From: frozen wasteland Joined: Member Rating: 3.5 |
Need moar communion.
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Stile Member Posts: 4010 From: Ontario, Canada Joined:
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Who wants a Stile ramble? Here it comes! I have a few things to say about such a statement. First, I don't think things are so streamlined. I think there's a plethora of reasons why people believe, and why they don't... ranging from 'just human nature' to 'in-depth reflection.' Because of that, I think it's a disservice to lump everything together as "Believers are ..." or "Non-believers are ..." There are just too many different people who are believers or non-believers for too many different reasons to think they are all like you, or me, or anyone specific. So, I will take your statement more to say: quote: Reasons such as this: All those reasons (and more, I'm sure) can be a reason why someone is a believer or a non-believer. What I think you're getting at is the "in depth reflection" area of reasons. But I wouldn't use the same wording you used. I'd describe it more like this: Believers preferring a Father Figure or Protector or Rich Uncle The Answer they hold onto could be many different things (and possibly multiple things) Non-Believers preferring to grow up and leave the nest Perhaps this is true for some non-believers. -I would word it more that non-believers seem to be okay not having all the answers, and accepting the world however it may be. Non-believers may want many things, but they are willing to accept that things just aren't that way. Now, which one is Right and which is Wrong? In the sense of morality... I don't think it matters. What about the sense of The Way Things Are, though? What about truth and reality and accurate descriptions of the universe? Well, you can see this sort of thing in action in some Christian vs. Atheist debates: The Christian will fight dearly that something MUST be a certain way (God exists, Flood occurred, Biblical Creation, Resurrection, Apostles are real, Jesus exists...) The Atheist isn't defending another, specific concept... they're defending "whatever answer happens to seem more plausible with what we're able to see." That is, the Atheist would AGREE with the Christian, if everything we saw, felt, touched... led in the direction of what the Christian described. But there doesn't seem to ever be a way the Christian would agree with the Atheist. It MUST be the Christian's way... for one reason or another. But, of course, people are people. And some Atheists will cling to an idea themselves... and say things MUST be their way for reasons other than the evidence leaning in that direction. But there's always some Atheists willing to accept that the Christian is right if things would only show that the Christian was, indeed, right. Are their Christians willing to do this? I think that's the difference you're talking about. Some Atheists are willing to denounce atheism and fight for anything else at all as long as reality supports the position. Maybe it means they're not an Atheist... they don't really care. The issue is... it's not about Believers vs. Non-Believers. It's about Believers vs. Reality-Followers. It just so happens that, right now, the evidence seems to imply that Reality-Followers should be Non-Believers.
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Phat Member Posts: 14839 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
And of course, you and I know that in our "Stile-framed" dialogues there is no absolute.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)
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Stile Member Posts: 4010 From: Ontario, Canada Joined:
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I think I may have overstepped things here for the sake of some dramatics. One could (rightfully) argue that both are attempting to "follow reality." The measure of which is doing it better/right is up to the individual.
I would say it's not so much the quest for further evidence and answers is the answer for others... but simply the quest to find out what ever actually is the truth. Maybe they'll end up in the same place, maybe not. One side puts the belief above all else, even though there's a possibility the belief could be wrong (simply because we, as humans, don't know everything). The other side puts being "part of reality" above all else, even though there's a possibility we will never get to actually know. And, really, there are pros can cons to both sides. That is, most believers put some religious belief above all else (God exists? Ultimate Justice? ...) when talking about the fabric of reality. On the other hand, most evidence-followers put some evidentially-supported-proposition forward when talking about the fabric of reality. Just for fun, here's an off-the-top-of-my-head go at pros and cons for each "side" (even though we all use both "sides" for different things...): Believers - Holding a certain Idea or Answer above all else Cons Evidence-Followers - Taking whatever idea that the evidence points towards Cons I think it's helpful to understand the differences.. the pros and the cons. Edited by Stile, : Added some bolding to make it easier to read
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Faith ![]() Suspended Member (Idle past 186 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Hm. I believe the evidence led me to my Christian beliefs. There is always more to learn, always, for all eternity for that matter, but the basics were answered for me when I became a Christian. There's no further evidence that could change that. What, I learned that Christ is God who became a man to pay for my sins -- how could that change with further evidence? There is no possibility this belief could be wrong, I know how I got to it and now I'm there. All else is to be subsumed under it because there is no way to doubt it. There are plenty of other things I believe as part of the basics, such as the reality of the miracles reported in the Bible, which are themselves evidence for the whole Plan of Redemption spelled out in god's word. YOU may be able to doubt any of it, but the evidence is quite sufficient for me, and it took me from one way of being into a completely new way of being and I can never go back.
Some people may think they can believe without evidence but I can only assume they just aren't good at recognizing the evidence because nobody can believe ANYTHING without evidence. And of course I don't find any conflict with true science. True science is a wonderful gift of God. Some science is built on false interpretations, however. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Stile Member Posts: 4010 From: Ontario, Canada Joined:
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There are also many who believe the evidence led them to their Flat-Earth beliefs. Perhaps 'the evidence' led you to your Christian beliefs.
Exactly. If your beliefs were based on the evidence... then you wouldn't be able to say such a thing. Therefore, the evidence you saw led you to your Christian beliefs, but your Christian beliefs are actually based on something else.
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Faith ![]() Suspended Member (Idle past 186 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
And there are those who also wrongly believe the evidence led them ot the Old Earth and Evolution. So what? My point is only that I make use of evidence and don't think it's possible to believe anything without evidence. And no, the nature of the conclusions to be drawn from the kind of evidence available means there can be no other conclusions drawn.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 874 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
Really? Many people who believed in a round earth, but claim to have switched to a belief in a flat earth on the basis of evidence? Can you present some examples? "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein “I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.” – Erwin Schroedinger
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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That is not quite what he claimed. He never said that they switched beliefs, but rather than the evidence suggested to some folks that the earth was flat. Quite frankly, I think that such a claim is very easy to believe. If your experiments don't cover much distance, ordinary tooling around with Euclidean geometry suggests a flat earth. In a previous discussion, we talked about early attempts to conduct the Bedford Level experiment that appeared to give results consistent with a flat earth and not a spherical one. The errors in those experiments have since been identified. However, someone at the time might well have taken those experiments as evidence for a flat earth. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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PaulK Member Posts: 16666 Joined: Member Rating: 3.9 |
quote: The evidence supports both those things and you know it. quote: As you have just reminded us you frequently make excuses to deny the evidence. You frequently believe things on - at best - very weak evidence, and in ignorance of evidence that is quite easily found. quote: That would be pretty amazing if it were true. But it isn’t. In the “Tension of Faith” thread you were promoting the Gospel of John as good evidence, despite the fact that it is clearly not - and it is certainly not evidence from which “no other conclusions can be drawn”. You were even reduced to pulling in the false dogma of Biblical inerrancy in an attempt to support its value as evidence (and there is another belief you cling to despite clear and strong evidence to the contrary). That makes it very clear that you don’t have evidence which matches the description I quoted above. You don’t even have good evidence.
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Phat Member Posts: 14839 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I suppose that no God is required, but I prefer talking with someone wiser and saner than myself. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)
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ringo Member Posts: 18854 From: frozen wasteland Joined: Member Rating: 3.5 |
But in Message 471 you said: quote: Which is it? You have to work to get into Hell? Or lack of introspection gets you into Hell?
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Phat Member Posts: 14839 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I would say both. To me, I would have to work to get there. Work on being selfish. Work on being proud and vain. Work on being ignorant of the reality surrounding my fellow man and myself.
Now, of course, Original Sin says that we are already ruined creations, anyway...so I'm starting to grow out of that philosophy. Introspection helps. Posting replies at this forum is a form of introspection. I have also found that it is at times easy to deny God and at other times not so easy. Whether or not this action alone earns me a ticket to hell is problematic, however....chiefly because of people like you. I would certainly never send you there. I doubt I would send myself there, though there are days.... Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)
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ringo Member Posts: 18854 From: frozen wasteland Joined: Member Rating: 3.5 |
It seems to me that most people have to work at NOT being selfish, proud, vain, ignorant, etc. Those tendencies are the excuse for concepts like The Fall and Original Sin. We know we have those tendencies but fundies like to think that "the Creator of all seen and unseen" didn't create them.
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Phat Member Posts: 14839 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I for one believe that it further complicates things. I refuse to be left holding the bag for how my life turns out, especially when I'm already trying to do my best. I cant very well blame you now can I? If God never existed, it would be necessary to create Him so that I could hold Him accountable for how I turn out. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)
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