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Author Topic:   After Palmyra ISIS Targets Monuments on U.S. Soil
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 61 of 95 (781600)
04-05-2016 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Jon
04-05-2016 7:30 PM


Re: Reasons Matter
Show me that someone living today is an actual victim of the statue of Beauregard and we'll talk.
..
Until then, you're just blowing bullshit smoke out all your holes.

None of your goal post shifting or insults change the fact your position is complete unsupportable. Fascism has an actual definition, and it bears little to no resemblance to your own descriptions.

But your refusal to defend your position that racism and slavery are/were imaginary is noted.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Jon, posted 04-05-2016 7:30 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Jon, posted 04-05-2016 9:18 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 95 (781603)
04-05-2016 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Dr Adequate
04-05-2016 7:54 PM


Re: Reasons Matter
Actually, the fascists and communists put up the symbols of fascism and communism. Taking them down is the exact opposite.

Of course that's a nonsense string of illogic.

Just because fascists put them up doesn't mean those taking them down can't also be fascists.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-05-2016 7:54 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-05-2016 10:11 PM Jon has acknowledged this reply

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 95 (781605)
04-05-2016 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by NoNukes
04-05-2016 8:57 PM


Re: Reasons Matter
But your refusal to defend your position that racism and slavery are/were imaginary is noted.

You are laughably stupid, NoNukes. A complete joke of the most unfortunately hilarious kind.

As usual instead of discussing the argument being made you try to invent some silly nonsense in your head to go after, like making believe that I ever said 'racism and slavery are/were imaginary'.

Edited by Jon, : No reason given.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by NoNukes, posted 04-05-2016 8:57 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 95 (781606)
04-05-2016 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Dr Adequate
04-05-2016 7:58 PM


Re: Fly your Flags Somewhere Else...
It was possible to put them up without irreparably damaging them. It should be possible to reverse the process.

Are you trying to be funny?

When you make risible claims, a wink or two would help us all know if you're being serious or not.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-05-2016 7:58 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-05-2016 10:07 PM Jon has acknowledged this reply

Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 65 of 95 (781609)
04-05-2016 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Jon
04-05-2016 9:20 PM


Re: Fly your Flags Somewhere Else...
Are you trying to be funny?

No. I seriously think it is possible to move statues without damaging them. As evidence for this proposition, I would cite the fact that it is possible to move statues without damaging them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Jon, posted 04-05-2016 9:20 PM Jon has acknowledged this reply

Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 66 of 95 (781610)
04-05-2016 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Jon
04-05-2016 9:15 PM


Re: Reasons Matter
Of course that's a nonsense string of illogic.

It's illogical to say that taking something down is the opposite of putting it up?

Y'know, the longer this thread goes on, the less convinced I am that you're any judge of what's illogical.

Just because fascists put them up doesn't mean those taking them down can't also be fascists.

If they were fascists, they wouldn't have wanted to take them down. Fascists like fascist symbols.

How about you answer my question now? Do you think that the American soldiers who took down the statue of Saddam Hussein are "fascists by definition" and "no better than the folks of ISIS"?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Jon, posted 04-05-2016 9:15 PM Jon has acknowledged this reply

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 95 (781616)
04-05-2016 10:38 PM


Back to Sanity...
If anyone's interested in discussing the topic, I'll be here.

Love your enemies!

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by NoNukes, posted 04-05-2016 11:34 PM Jon has not yet responded

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 95 (781618)
04-05-2016 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Jon
04-05-2016 10:38 PM


Re: Back to Sanity...
f anyone's interested in discussing the topic, I'll be here.

Your topic is being discussed. Both your definition of fascism and your unfavorable comparison of people who petition the government to move statutes into a museum with ISIS have been disputed. In addition your statements about imaginary victimization have been disputed. I suspect the silly hyperbole sprinkled among those extreme comparisons does not help either.

Perhaps it is the topic itself that is flawed. Perhaps it is your insistence on comparing people with opinions different from your own to Nazi's that is inhibiting any real discussion. If so, that's no surprise. Usually such comparison do create more heat than light.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Jon, posted 04-05-2016 10:38 PM Jon has not yet responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 17145
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 69 of 95 (781677)
04-06-2016 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Jon
04-05-2016 7:26 PM


Re: Fly your Flags Somewhere Else...
Jon writes:

It's about actual monuments made of stone and metal, some of which will be irreparably damaged if taken from where they stand.


We have museums chock-full of statues that have been moved.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Jon, posted 04-05-2016 7:26 PM Jon has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-06-2016 1:14 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 70 of 95 (781679)
04-06-2016 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by ringo
04-06-2016 12:32 PM


Re: Fly your Flags Somewhere Else...
We have museums chock-full of statues that have been moved.

But statues commemorating racism, slavery, and treason are particularly brittle. Apparently.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by ringo, posted 04-06-2016 12:32 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

Modulous
Member (Idle past 332 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 71 of 95 (781682)
04-06-2016 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Jon
04-05-2016 7:26 PM


Re: Fly your Flags Somewhere Else...
It's about actual monuments made of stone and metal, some of which will be irreparably damaged if taken from where they stand.

Clearly you haven't even bothered to read the court transcripts about this case or you would have noticed that this exact argument was raised by those that wanted to keep the statues in place. An argument which fell to pieces upon examining the evidence of people....moving antique statues for a living...including the ones in question.

The irony here is that if they do end up getting damaged, it was the REAL fascist's fault. You know, the guys who were using arson, death threats...the people with hardon for romantic imagery of a revisionist history of their fatherland that they hanker to return to? You know, fascists. They have deterred one of the best contractors in the country from doing the job. So any claim of substandard work was the arsonist's fault. It was those that threatened to commit murder rather than see statues of their favourite historical cunts moved a mile to the southeast who were to blame.

Former Grand Wizard of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan and notorious felon David Duke incited a riot at the foot of the Robert Lee statue. You know Robert E. Lee, that famous New Orleans resident? OH, well he did something historical related to New Orleans, right? Erm no. So the statue is a proven nuisance and there is preexisting regulations for how the government should handle monuments that are nuisances which have all been followed to the letter? Hrm

PGT Beauregard, sure he has a strong connection to the area. He was the proximate officer in charge when the first shots of the civil war were ordered. He introduced the infamous Confederate Battle Flag and fought for its general adoption. A notable local person, for sure - but perhaps a figure who also might draw attention. Lee was the rallying place for Duke's KKK riot, but Beauregard's connection to the flag has meant the monument is already being defaced. Protecting and maintaining it will probably cost New Orleans more money than moving it. Fortunately, there are laws in place that nobody has previously objected to for many many years, for how the government should deal with situations like this as they arise. Those laws were peaceably followed with judicial oversight. Fascists.

Jefferson Davis was of course President of the Confederacy, championing slavery and being a terrible President. I can see historical significance of the person, but he was terrible so why have a statue of him? Same principles above about its removal.

Liberty Monument, memorialising White Supremacist insurrectionist/terrorists killing their way into overthrowing. A monument which was raised by the very white supremacists the original white supremacists wanted in power when they went on their murder spree. A monument which in the 1930s was inscribed by yet more racists who wanted everyone to know what a gigantic 'fuck you' the monument was meant to be to black people, with the following:

quote:
McEnery and Penny having been elected governor and lieutenant-governor by the white people, were duly installed by this overthrow of carpetbag government, ousting the usurpers, Governor Kellogg (white) and Lieutenant-Governor Antoine (colored).

United States troops took over the state government and reinstated the usurpers but the national election of November 1876 recognized white supremacy in the South and gave us our state.


The monument which has been vandalised, costing money, for decades and decades, one which Mr Duke has also tried to incite a riot, sorry 'organize a KKK rally in downtown New Orleans'. One that has already been declared a nuisance decades ago and was moved to a less prominent location and had its racist inscription removed? This monument:

Yeah, I see why that one's on the list too.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Jon, posted 04-05-2016 7:26 PM Jon has not yet responded

Taq
Member
Posts: 7997
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 72 of 95 (781684)
04-06-2016 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Jon
03-27-2016 7:46 PM


The evidence is the whole stream of nonsense sweeping the U.S. South regarding anything that may remind anyone of the Confederacy and the Fascist Left's repeated use of 'offense' to silence opposing view points.

There's a difference between someone having a book on the history of Nazis on their desk and someone who has a picture of Hitler on their desk while wearing a KKK hoodie.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Jon, posted 03-27-2016 7:46 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Jon, posted 04-06-2016 9:34 PM Taq has responded
 Message 74 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-06-2016 10:02 PM Taq has not yet responded

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 95 (781726)
04-06-2016 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Taq
04-06-2016 3:18 PM


There's a difference between a brown turd and a green turd too.

What's your point?


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Taq, posted 04-06-2016 3:18 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Taq, posted 04-07-2016 3:32 PM Jon has responded

Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 74 of 95 (781728)
04-06-2016 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Taq
04-06-2016 3:18 PM


In fact, it would be a fine thing if more people in the South did know a little more about the history of the Civil War. Stuff like what it was about, and who won. But since years and years of exposure to Confederate flags hasn't achieved this, I'm starting to think that maybe we should try something else.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Taq, posted 04-06-2016 3:18 PM Taq has not yet responded

anglagard
Member
Posts: 2200
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(4)
Message 75 of 95 (781732)
04-07-2016 2:10 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Jon
04-02-2016 11:57 AM


Re: Reasons Matter
Jon writes:

Libraries throw books away all the time - they get worn, aren't read often, need the space, etc. Nobody much cares when they do it as part of their usual business goings on.

But there is understandably a certain amount of discomfort felt by more liberal minds upon finding out that a library may have thrown away a book because of the 'message' it contains.

Since I took over the library system here, guess what has suddenly appeared on the library shelves:

Mein Kampf
Protocols of Zion
Naked Lunch
Electric Kool Aid Acid Test
The Turner Diaries
The Necronomicon
The Satanic Bible
All the works of Hunter S. Thompson and C. Cargassian Boyle (the latter in response to a classroom content challenge by some nut on behalf of his dual-credit (HS and college) daughter.
A few others I have forgotten.

I also added some other works that were not there before, such as:

The Qu'ran
The Bhagavad Gita
The Tao
The Ramayana
The Mahabharata
The Popol Vuh
The Torah
20+ alternate translations of the Bible, including the Tanakh.
And a whole slew of respected works on everything from the Bahai to the Zoroastrianism and everything I can think of in between.

As you can see, both the sacred and the profane - currently taking suggestions.

Yet not a peep from a place that could compete with Alabama and Mississippi for reactionary politics (wonder why?). A place where I dare not attach a Sander's bumper sticker to my vehicle (people who are among those small donors get one) because my vehicle would be keyed within the hour while I see ignorant rednecks flaunt the stars and bars on a daily basis.

You may well ask what is the relevance to this thread?

First, if you are going to be a dick, do not even mention my sacred profession.

Second, if you can't understand why a given group that has suffered under 400 years of slavery based solely on origin may find the symbols of that despicable practice when in their face every day somehow offensive, then you are truly clueless. Even Robert E. Lee told his followers to put the symbols of the Confederacy in the attic after he became the first (and unfortunately still among the few) who acknowledged they lost. I suppose you are similarly clueless about how American Indians find the term 'Washington Redskins' similarly offensive after 400 years of genocide.

Third, as far as I am concerned anyone defending the Confederacy is a traitor. I have that right. My ancestors and I have served this nation since it's conception. I am a Cold War veteran in intelligence, my cousin was the head of intelligence for the American Embassy in Iraq (he retired because he told me his position had become "too political"). My uncle was a major in the 82nd Airborne in Vietnam while another was among the first to cross the Bridge at Remagen after his participation in the Battle of the Bulge. My parents both served in the Pacific in WW2 and Korea. My grandfather was in WW1. Albeit my mother had an ancestor who did fight for Florida and the Confederates, but the Yankees got a leg for his troubles. Meanwhile, my father's side and their neighbors all distilled and sold corn likker to both adversaries at the time, thus finding not only a lucrative business enterprise but also ensuring peace in the Ozarks after Pea Ridge until the end (apparently hillbillies aren't so stupid after all). And so on.

I have defended you in the past despite your fuzzy thinking. I feel I have a deeper understanding of who you used to be because of our many chat sessions back when that was more active. I know you used to be better than your recent posts. This is the last time I cut you slack.

Now, I don't recognize the old Jon. Please don't associate or even mention my sacred profession with your bullshit. I don't think you will like the results.

Edited by anglagard, : Replace his with their right before I start going on about all that corn likker and saving lives by making soldiers too drunk to fight


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Jon, posted 04-02-2016 11:57 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by 1.61803, posted 04-07-2016 10:28 AM anglagard has not yet responded
 Message 78 by Theodoric, posted 04-07-2016 11:19 AM anglagard has not yet responded
 Message 79 by Thugpreacha, posted 04-07-2016 11:36 AM anglagard has not yet responded
 Message 82 by nwr, posted 04-07-2016 6:20 PM anglagard has not yet responded
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