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Author Topic:   Creation
Tom Larkin
Junior Member (Idle past 1268 days)
Posts: 25
From: Attleboro MA US
Joined: 07-09-2017


(1)
Message 277 of 1482 (814671)
07-11-2017 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ICANT
04-22-2016 3:13 AM


Alignment Evolution and Genesis
I have presented a biblical argument for evolution and Genesis being compatible (Genesis and Evolution (Larkin)) as I believe the accounts in Genesis 1 and 2 are sequential. Throughout the book of Genesis, the "generations" of the line not leading to Jesus are always given first (Cain before Seth, the generations of Japheth and of Ham are given before the generations of Shem, and so on.

I believe that the creation described in Chapter 1 is consistent with this approach, describes the line not leading to Jesus (and the "daughters of men" in Chapter 6), and the creation describe from Chapter 2 on describes the generations leading to Christ (the "sons of God" in Chapter 6, consistent with the rest of Genesis (more detail in the book).

Therefore, men and women created in Chapter 1 came before the direct creation of Adam and Eve in Chapter 2, which eliminates the conflict with evolution and aligns with the rest of Genesis.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Blank lines between paragraphs.


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 Message 279 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-11-2017 7:42 PM Tom Larkin has responded
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Tom Larkin
Junior Member (Idle past 1268 days)
Posts: 25
From: Attleboro MA US
Joined: 07-09-2017


Message 297 of 1482 (814929)
07-13-2017 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by New Cat's Eye
07-11-2017 7:42 PM


Re: Alignment Evolution and Genesis
Men and woman in chapter 1 ("daughters of men") were created prior to Adam and Eve ("sons of God")in Chapter 2. Men and women in Chapter 1, I speculate, we created by God are part of the normal evolution process, just like all the other creation in Chapter 1

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 Message 279 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-11-2017 7:42 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
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Tom Larkin
Junior Member (Idle past 1268 days)
Posts: 25
From: Attleboro MA US
Joined: 07-09-2017


Message 298 of 1482 (814930)
07-13-2017 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by PaulK
07-12-2017 4:43 PM


Re: Alignment Evolution and Genesis
In Chapter 1 men and women were created, it Chapter 2 Adam and Eve were created, this is not a great stretch and I believe a logical conclusion if you simply reading Genesis as if for the first time. There is actually scientific data published in reliable sources that align with this theory. 1. Nature (Callaway, Ewen, “Genetic Adam and Eve did not live too far apart in time”, Nature, 6Aug13) 2. (“Mozambican Grass Seed Consumption During the Middle Stone Age”, Science, 18Dec 2009).
More detail in the book, if you contact me you I will send the manuscript or you can get online.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by PaulK, posted 07-12-2017 4:43 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by PaulK, posted 07-14-2017 12:38 AM Tom Larkin has responded

  
Tom Larkin
Junior Member (Idle past 1268 days)
Posts: 25
From: Attleboro MA US
Joined: 07-09-2017


(1)
Message 300 of 1482 (814932)
07-13-2017 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by ringo
07-12-2017 3:17 PM


Referencing Romans 5:12 and even 1 Cor 15:45 are valid and good points. What I am proposing does not contradict that we are all descended from Adam and Eve, as "Noah was perfect in his generations" meaning he was a direct descendent of Adam and Eve.

Through Adam's sin we are all "from a corruptible seed" (1Cor15) and are subject to sin and death. Through Christ's death and resurrection we can receive eternal life just through faith in Him.

What Paul is describing in Romans 5:12 is Spiritual Death and Spiritual Life. Adam did not die when he ate the fruit, he experienced spiritual death or separation from God. This is more clear through the references below:

"that even as the sin did reign in the death, so also the grace may reign, through righteousness, to life age-during, through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 5:21)

John 11:25-26 (YLT)

25 Jesus said to her, `I am the rising again, and the life; he who is believing in me, even if he may die, shall live;
26 and every one who is living and believing in me shall not die -- to the age; - similarly to Paul regarding this subject, Jesus is describing spiritual life and death.


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 Message 293 by ringo, posted 07-12-2017 3:17 PM ringo has responded

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Tom Larkin
Junior Member (Idle past 1268 days)
Posts: 25
From: Attleboro MA US
Joined: 07-09-2017


Message 301 of 1482 (814933)
07-13-2017 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by PaulK
07-12-2017 4:43 PM


Re: Alignment Evolution and Genesis
I am not an old earth, new earth or intelligent design creationist. I simply read the Bible and see what it says. It is my understanding, just from reading, that Moses was shown creation by God in 6 days.

God created the universe / multi-verse and all the physical laws of the universe. He could have created the universe the minute before I was born with everything appropriately aged, but I don't feel He did, just from common sense and reading the Bible.

I don't have scripture or science to back me up on this belief, just common sense.

Edited by Tom Larkin, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by PaulK, posted 07-12-2017 4:43 PM PaulK has responded

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Tom Larkin
Junior Member (Idle past 1268 days)
Posts: 25
From: Attleboro MA US
Joined: 07-09-2017


Message 306 of 1482 (814979)
07-14-2017 6:01 AM
Reply to: Message 305 by PaulK
07-14-2017 12:38 AM


Re: Alignment Evolution and Genesis
Paul:

First of all, thanks for the feedback, I came to this forum to have intelligent discussion.

I have presented a Biblical argument correlated with scientific data that Genesis is presented sequentially. The creation in Chapter 1 is very different in order of event and content than the creation in chapter 2, so, as you say, if this was a retelling of the same story they would be conflicting. I am proposing that these are two very different creation stories that happen sequentially, Genesis 1 is the creation of the universe, sun moon and stars, earth, plants animals and men and women. Chapter 2 describes a specific creation of Adam, Eve and the garden.

You appear to be presenting statements without logical reasoning to back them up, please provide this as it would be helpful. The scientific data simply indicates that we are all descended from one man and one woman, who lived approximately 90k -150k BCE (BC is an oxymoron, there was no time before Christ). This man and this woman lived at the time when there were other men and women around. This data is consistent with the "separate creation" of Adam, Eve and the garden, created after the creation in Chapter 1 of other men and women.

Whether this is Noah or Adam is irrelevant as we are told in Genesis 6 that "Noah was perfect in his generations" so his DNA was of Adam and Eve.

Also, the reason stated for Adam's creation was "there was not a man to till the ground", the other reference I provided lists evidence that the start of "farming" aligns with the timeframe stated above. I just thought this was an interesting addition. The date proposed by scientific data will change, they always do, but the alignment is the important piece.

Tom

Edited by Tom Larkin, : No reason given.


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 Message 312 by NoNukes, posted 07-14-2017 10:04 PM Tom Larkin has responded

  
Tom Larkin
Junior Member (Idle past 1268 days)
Posts: 25
From: Attleboro MA US
Joined: 07-09-2017


Message 313 of 1482 (815121)
07-16-2017 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 312 by NoNukes
07-14-2017 10:04 PM


Re: Alignment Evolution and Genesis
Regarding alignment, you are making the same argument that I am making. The youngest common ancestors are not the first humans. This is held by science and I include the reference in nature.

What I am saying is that the events of Genesis 1 and 2 are in sequence, in Chapter 1, men and women are created. In chapter 2 Adam and Eve are created, not the first men and women. Therefore there is no conflict with evolution, evolved man is in chapter 1.

With regard to there being no time before Christ. in John 1 it says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God and all things were made through him". In the Old Testament, Jesus is referred to as "The angel of the Lord" who speaks with the authority of God. It is an interesting study if you ever want to take it up. (See Zechariah 3:4 where the angel of the Lord takes away sin).

Tom


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 Message 312 by NoNukes, posted 07-14-2017 10:04 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Tom Larkin
Junior Member (Idle past 1268 days)
Posts: 25
From: Attleboro MA US
Joined: 07-09-2017


Message 315 of 1482 (815129)
07-16-2017 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by jar
07-16-2017 5:10 PM


Re: On the Bible and reality
Can you elaborate on the logic associated with your conclusions? You should view the "Argument Clinic" by Monty Python, it is very funny.

Where is my logic flawed? Jesus is all throughout the old testament - check out the 22nd Psalm - it is a detailed description of the crucification.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by jar, posted 07-16-2017 5:10 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by jar, posted 07-16-2017 5:47 PM Tom Larkin has responded

  
Tom Larkin
Junior Member (Idle past 1268 days)
Posts: 25
From: Attleboro MA US
Joined: 07-09-2017


Message 317 of 1482 (815137)
07-16-2017 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by jar
07-16-2017 5:47 PM


Re: On the Bible and reality
Thanks for the thoughtful response, I have reviewed the referenced response that clearly shows you have done a great deal of work in this area. I agree that the church may not be recognizable to Jesus or Paul today. We are instructed to love our brother, yet we have to be reminded to even "tolerate" or coexist" with our brother. Judgment of others is rampant and we do many things that call attention to ourselves rather than Jesus.

1. I would be interested hear what is the basis for your current beliefs? How do we know the mind of God? What is right and what is wrong? How can we have fellowship with God? What should be our relationship to other men and women?

2. Another of your comments "Why did they include two mutually exclusive and contradictory creation tales and why put the much younger creation tale before the much older creation tale?" is the exact reason that I wrote this book. I presented a Biblical argument that these two stories are sequential, and not retelling of the same story which eliminate the conflict with science. It doesn't matter how God created man, just that he did it. The sequence is pretty impressive for being 3-4k years old. I think the specific sequence where birds are placed in order give us a clue that Moses was shown the evolution of animals, as birds are put in the order of where you would think dinosaurs to be (from who they evolved). If you reject the bible, then you will not accept my argument as it describes how the sequential order of Chapters 1 and 2 align with other content in the Bible (the rest of Genesis, specifically Genesis 6). I would still be interested in your answer to question one (or a redirect to a post that explains it)

Tom


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 Message 316 by jar, posted 07-16-2017 5:47 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by jar, posted 07-16-2017 6:48 PM Tom Larkin has responded

  
Tom Larkin
Junior Member (Idle past 1268 days)
Posts: 25
From: Attleboro MA US
Joined: 07-09-2017


Message 319 of 1482 (815149)
07-16-2017 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by jar
07-16-2017 6:48 PM


Re: On the Bible and reality
The philosophy you describe toward man is in the Bible, with the exception that you did not include "love your enemy". How can you determine what has been perverted and what is not? I am really interested to know in the pursuit of truth.

I noticed that many time Jesus quotes from the Old Testament, that was my first indication that there may be some truth in it. He spoke out against the religious leaders of the time (as I am sure he would do now) and the religious traditions, but not against the scriptures.

I have begun to study Hebrew to develop a better understanding of the Old Testament and the language of Genesis is pretty basic, it is difficult to screw up the translation (One point of interest is that the word for God, Elohim, is actually a plural word). Again I will ask if there is a source I can study, in pursuit of the truth, to help me understand what text has been perverted. My detailed study of the Bible over the last 10 years has shown remarkable consistency throughout and an understanding of the mind of God, how to have fellowship with Him, now and in the future, and what is God's plan for our lives.

I have seen Christians says ridiculous things about science and have this spill over into non Biblical matters, such as Climate Change. The purpose of my book is to bring back alignment and minimize the district of science. I will e-mail a manuscript to anyone who requests it. My intent is not to make any money, but to eliminate this perceived conflict.

I will one again request a list of resources from which I can determine what has been perverted in the Bible and what has not.

Your brother in the pursuit of knowledge and in Christ,
Tom


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 Message 318 by jar, posted 07-16-2017 6:48 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by jar, posted 07-16-2017 8:22 PM Tom Larkin has responded
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Tom Larkin
Junior Member (Idle past 1268 days)
Posts: 25
From: Attleboro MA US
Joined: 07-09-2017


Message 323 of 1482 (815231)
07-17-2017 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by jar
07-16-2017 8:22 PM


Re: On the Bible and reality
You continue to mention what is incorrect and what has been perverted - what is your source of truth about God?

What do you believe about God?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by jar, posted 07-16-2017 8:22 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by jar, posted 07-17-2017 8:47 PM Tom Larkin has responded

  
Tom Larkin
Junior Member (Idle past 1268 days)
Posts: 25
From: Attleboro MA US
Joined: 07-09-2017


Message 324 of 1482 (815233)
07-17-2017 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by ringo
07-17-2017 12:00 PM


Re: Alignment Evolution and Genesis
I am suggesting that men and women were created in Chapter 1 and that Adam and Eve and the garden were created in Chapter2. If you just read Genesis, this is what it says. I argue that this is consistent with the rest of Genesis:
Throughout the book of Genesis, the "generations" of the line not leading to Jesus are always given first (Cain before Seth, the generations of Japheth and of Ham are given before the generations of Shem, and so on.
I believe that the creation described in Chapter 1 is consistent with this approach, describes the line not leading to Jesus (and the "daughters of men" in Chapter 6), and the creation describe from Chapter 2 on describes the generations leading to Christ (the "sons of God" in Chapter 6, consistent with the rest of Genesis (more detail in the book).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by ringo, posted 07-17-2017 12:00 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by ringo, posted 07-18-2017 11:52 AM Tom Larkin has responded

  
Tom Larkin
Junior Member (Idle past 1268 days)
Posts: 25
From: Attleboro MA US
Joined: 07-09-2017


Message 326 of 1482 (815260)
07-18-2017 5:41 AM
Reply to: Message 325 by jar
07-17-2017 8:47 PM


Re: On the Bible and reality
So by believing in nothing, you have set yourself up to be able to criticize everything. In my book, I state that my argument is Biblical so if you do not accept the Bible, then the argument is meaningless. There is no need for you to go further.

I believe that I am corrupt like every other person who ever lived except One, who took on my sin when he died on the cross. Through His death and resurrection I am declared righteous before God, not because of anything I have done.

I wish you the best, my brother,
Tom


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Tom Larkin
Junior Member (Idle past 1268 days)
Posts: 25
From: Attleboro MA US
Joined: 07-09-2017


Message 332 of 1482 (815651)
07-22-2017 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 328 by ringo
07-18-2017 11:52 AM


Re: Alignment Evolution and Genesis
Yes, it is possible to tell. All of us today are descended from Adam. That is why it is recorded in Chapter 6 when discussing the Sons of God and the daughters of men that Noah was "perfect in his generations" meaning he is a direct descendent of Adam.

The entire point of my book is that Christians are rejecting aspects of science when there is no need, and that men and women trained in science are rejecting scripture when there is no need, they are not mutually exclusive studies.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by ringo, posted 07-18-2017 11:52 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by Tangle, posted 07-22-2017 12:00 PM Tom Larkin has responded
 Message 336 by PaulK, posted 07-22-2017 1:26 PM Tom Larkin has responded
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Tom Larkin
Junior Member (Idle past 1268 days)
Posts: 25
From: Attleboro MA US
Joined: 07-09-2017


Message 334 of 1482 (815656)
07-22-2017 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by Tangle
07-22-2017 12:00 PM


Re: Alignment Evolution and Genesis
I have seen many people reject the Christian faith as mythology as they have heard things that a contradictory to science from Christians. I have heard people say "I don't believe in God, I believe in science" when there is no need to choose between the two.

I have a ME in Biochemical Engineering, for years I rejected the Old testament as myth because I thought is was contradictory to science. It was only until I studied it in detail, saw how it is aligned and completely consistent with the new testament and the vast amount of prophecy that has already been fulfilled, that I accepted it as the Word of God. Jesus is an active participant in the Old testament, he is called "the Angel of the Lord" (see Zechariah 3 for one of many examples)


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 Message 333 by Tangle, posted 07-22-2017 12:00 PM Tangle has responded

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