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Author Topic:   Creation
Phat
Member
Posts: 15818
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 258 of 1482 (809570)
05-19-2017 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by ICANT
06-23-2016 2:47 PM


Giving This Topic Another Opportunity
Lets give this topic another opportunity.

I CANT writes:

I would like to discuss what the Bible says about creation in comparison to what Science says about creation.
Since my arguments will be based on the Bible this will need to be placed in the Bible Study.

I would like to discuss one point at the time starting with creation according to what the Bible has recorded in it.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

This verse tells us that "In the beginning" is when the heaven and the earth was created.

YEC's tell us that was 6 to 10 thousand years ago.

Science tells us that was 13.4 to 20 billion years in the past. Some scientist have shortened the time to 8 billion years in the past.

The Bible does not say when the beginning was, just that it was. There is no verse in the Bible that says when the beginning was.

Therefore the universe could have begun to exist at any point in past duration.

Thus the Bible and science agrees that the universe began to exist and it is old.

Once we have discussed what the bible says about the beginning to exist of the universe and the scientific view we can move on to how God might have accomplished that event.

God Bless,

I realize that this is a Bible-based thread, so I won't attempt to refute scripture with evidence...though some may choose to do so.

I like that you interpret the Bible without definite dates assigned to given events. This makes the belief that God created everything more plausible---in light of today's scientific evidence.

Personally, I am a cosmological creationist. I believe that God exists and that He is the original source for everything created. Whether or not He intervenes...specifically within human thinking...is what intrigues me these days.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by ICANT, posted 06-23-2016 2:47 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by ringo, posted 05-19-2017 12:00 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 392 by ICANT, posted 01-18-2018 1:14 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15818
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(2)
Message 412 of 1482 (827247)
01-21-2018 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 411 by creation
01-21-2018 2:04 PM


Re: Creation
I do see that the sun will go out...dark in the very end. Cities will need to use candles.
If the Sun "goes out" there will be nothing left alive to light the candles.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by creation, posted 01-21-2018 2:04 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 413 by creation, posted 01-21-2018 2:49 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15818
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 459 of 1482 (827871)
02-03-2018 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 458 by ICANT
02-02-2018 5:01 PM


A Noun By Any Other Name
Perhaps a better question would be this: Was there a person, place or thing in Moses day?

I agree that Moses had no idea what a noun was. Nor a Buick. Nor the definition of critical thinking. He may well have unconsciously used critical thought, however. How did people think in those days? That's the real question.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 458 by ICANT, posted 02-02-2018 5:01 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 461 by ICANT, posted 02-03-2018 8:57 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15818
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 465 of 1482 (827893)
02-04-2018 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 464 by ICANT
02-03-2018 9:58 PM


Why NOT A Literal Bible?
Phat writes:

Personally, I am a cosmological creationist. I believe that God exists and that He is the original source for everything created. Whether or not He intervenes...specifically within human thinking...is what intrigues me these days.

I CANT writes:

If you are saying the Bible and Science will agree on the facts of how the universe began to exist I would agree.

This source differs.

I CANT writes:

I tell people all the time if you can believe Genesis 1:1 you will not have any problem with any part of the rest of the Bible.
My question to you is why do you not believe in a literal reading of the Bible?

Because much of it makes the science out to be a complete fabrication. Which flies in the face of reality.

If the bible were 100% true, it would mean that our best science, logic, and testable approaches used by humanity were all wrong. Which would mean that reality is literally not as it appears. So I have a choice between believing in what I can see and perceive or taking a leap of faith in an ancient book.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 464 by ICANT, posted 02-03-2018 9:58 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 488 by ICANT, posted 02-07-2018 3:42 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15818
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 501 of 1482 (828079)
02-09-2018 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 500 by ringo
02-09-2018 12:27 PM


Re: Why NOT A Literal Bible?
ringo writes:

It's been proven untrue even if you choose to believe it's true.

Be more specific. Saying that the flood is untrue does not mean that the life and ministry of Jesus Christ is untrue. Which specific claims do you personally regard as untrue?More to the point, what is truth?Are we limiting ourselves to evidence or are we discussing experience and plausibility of character?

Is it possible to prove that Long John Silver is untrue?

Did Jesus even exist? Why or why not?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 500 by ringo, posted 02-09-2018 12:27 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 514 by ringo, posted 02-10-2018 11:04 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15818
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 519 of 1482 (828146)
02-11-2018 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 514 by ringo
02-10-2018 11:04 AM


Re: Why NOT A Literal Bible?
ringo writes:

It only takes one untruth to prevent the whole Bible from being true.

Thats about the silliest thing you have ever written. Had I wrote it you would have plenty to say to refute it.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 514 by ringo, posted 02-10-2018 11:04 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 524 by ringo, posted 02-12-2018 11:04 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15818
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 548 of 1482 (828271)
02-15-2018 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 547 by ringo
02-15-2018 11:52 AM


Re: Bible
If at one point in time,even at the beginning of known time there was a singularity, that singularity would have the exact same weight and mass as the universe does now.

Belief is simply that God created the singularity rather than how it necessarily came to be. The BB theory may simply be a matter of observing Gods creation.

It makes more sense to ask "What came first? God or dirt" rather than to speculate that dirt has eternally existed. Critics say that one major reason that many people prefer the eternal dirt hypothesis is that dirt (matter) does not hold one accountable.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 547 by ringo, posted 02-15-2018 11:52 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 549 by jar, posted 02-15-2018 1:21 PM Phat has responded
 Message 559 by ringo, posted 02-16-2018 10:42 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15818
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 550 of 1482 (828274)
02-15-2018 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 549 by jar
02-15-2018 1:21 PM


Re: Bible
Because the singularity contains everything that is now out there...according to theory. Why would the mass change?
Or perhaps I am confusing mass with weight or volume.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 549 by jar, posted 02-15-2018 1:21 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 551 by jar, posted 02-15-2018 2:13 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 592 by ICANT, posted 02-23-2018 2:07 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15818
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 620 of 1482 (830461)
03-30-2018 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 619 by ICANT
03-30-2018 2:45 AM


Re: Bible
it seems the pictures cant describe the actual expansion theorized as they are not 3-dimensional diagrams, time being the 4th dimension. Or am I misunderstanding the argument? It appears to me that the universe was "created" in time. The mechanism in my mind would have to be whatever it was that created this universe.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 619 by ICANT, posted 03-30-2018 2:45 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 621 by jar, posted 03-30-2018 3:36 PM Phat has responded
 Message 627 by ICANT, posted 04-02-2018 1:06 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15818
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 622 of 1482 (830463)
03-30-2018 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 621 by jar
03-30-2018 3:36 PM


Re: Bible
I suppose human imagination and interpretation of logic, reason, and reality would be all we really have.... which is unsatisfactory in my mind

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 621 by jar, posted 03-30-2018 3:36 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 623 by jar, posted 03-30-2018 5:51 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 624 by Tangle, posted 03-31-2018 2:49 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15818
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 637 of 1482 (830565)
04-03-2018 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 634 by ICANT
04-02-2018 8:42 PM


Re: Bible
I CANT writes:

Why do you believe time only advances in a straight line in one direction only?

That is probably because you believe time is a dimension.

I will give an illustration using 4 quarks only. We start with 4 quarks at T=0 The single point that all the universe is crammed into something the size of a pin point.

These 4 quarks begin to leave the pin point all going in a direction like a plus sign, at the speed of light. 10 minutes later they would be a long ways apart.

Now are you telling me that only one of those quarks is traveling in the straight line of time. Making the other 3 not experience duration.
Now add all the other trillion trillion trillion trillions of quarks all heading in a different direction.

Did time exist in only the direction of 1 quark?

Just maybe time is not a dimension and is only a concept devised by mankind to measure duration between events. If that is the case it can measure the duration of each quark from the time it left the pinpoint.

In the context of my beliefs, God was, is, and always will be. In contrast to this, the Beast mentioned in the book of Revelation [i]Once was, now is not, and yet is, for those whose name is not written in the Book of Life.

Non Existence can be imagined through the concept of now is not. God created existence itself and if one walks with Jesus, one walks with a perpetual certainty of existence.

Relying only on human wisdom exposes us to the risk of non-existence in that we have no certainty of perpetual existence either mathematically or practically. At least that's my 2 cents.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 634 by ICANT, posted 04-02-2018 8:42 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 638 by Tangle, posted 04-03-2018 9:52 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 642 by ICANT, posted 04-04-2018 1:06 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15818
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 666 of 1482 (832092)
04-29-2018 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 665 by ICANT
04-29-2018 4:23 PM


Time as an effective dimension
Mod writes:

To locate something in the universe you need 4 dimensions. For instance my wallet is 1 metre north of my cat. It is 2 metres east of my cat. It is 1 metre up from my cat. But that isn't sufficient because tomorrow my wallet and the cat have moved. So I also need to use a fourth dimension - time

At the time of the singularity, the wallet, cat, and cube were all very very close to one another. Thus, in the sense of expansion, time allows distance to form between objects. Right? (It also allows objects to have height, width, and depth)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 665 by ICANT, posted 04-29-2018 4:23 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 669 by ICANT, posted 05-04-2018 11:55 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15818
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 711 of 1482 (833225)
05-18-2018 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 705 by ICANT
05-18-2018 1:01 PM


Methods Of Approaching Discussion.
I am curious if what they say is true.
NN writes:

I think the issue here is trying to communicate abstract ideas using analogies to someone who simply does not want to make sense out of the idea. It seems to me that we are not just fighting misunderstanding, but are instead trying to fight willful resistance.

From my perspective, I sense that you are trying to reason with Modulous, Dr.Jones, Stile, and the rest, but that you approach your reasoning with the presupposition of your belief that God exists and that the universe was created by Him. Your opponents, however, are not so concerned with connecting creation to a Creator as they are about trying to explain to you how natural laws work and how the universe was formed/created through these laws. Does that sound about right?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 705 by ICANT, posted 05-18-2018 1:01 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 714 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2018 8:51 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15818
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 715 of 1482 (833283)
05-19-2018 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 714 by ICANT
05-19-2018 8:51 AM


Re: Methods Of Approaching Discussion.
AZ Paul seemed to explain rather well what he was trying to get the reader to see in message Message 713. Perhaps his point is that there is no center of anything. One could argue, however, that from my personal perspective, I am indeed the origin of my own observational and reasoning capability...at least subjectively from my perspective.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 714 by ICANT, posted 05-19-2018 8:51 AM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15818
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 717 of 1482 (833285)
05-19-2018 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 713 by AZPaul3
05-18-2018 11:09 PM


Perhaps I CANT understands my pretend analogy
Make yourself really small tiny and stand on one of the dots as the balloon inflates (space expands). Look out at the space around you. What do you see? You see all the other dots moving away from you. To your perspective you are on the privileged dot in this limited 2D universe since the other dots are moving away from you. You are the central dot; the center of the universe. I make myself really small tiny and I stand 22 dots over from you. I look out at the space around me. What do I see? I see all the other dots moving away from me. To my perspective I am on the privileged dot in this limited 2D universe since the other dots, including you, are moving away from me. I am the central dot, not you. My dot is the center of the universe.
As long as we are pretending and attempting analogies, allow me to attempt to add to your analogy using some pretend stuff of my own. Say you are the Creator of all seen and unseen. You are a singular intelligence, presence, and Being. You choose to make yourself really small and tiny (by becoming a human) and stand on any dot that you choose. In fact, you stand before the expansion even begins, if this were possible. As the Creator of all seen and unseen, you didn't simply create the dots, the "space" and the "time"...you created every word, every object that words describe, every language, every living (and non-living formation of substance, and in fact the singularity itself. In essence, your dot is the singularity. Your raisin is the singularity. Other dots, raisins, stars, whatever...appear to move away from you only when you speak them into existence or imagine them. (which I suppose means that You Create through imagination)..One could argue that you are indeed standing on the privileged dot as your dot is, in fact, the initial singularity. Does that make any sense? Shall I attempt to run with it and pretend further or shall I throw the analogy away and begin again?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 713 by AZPaul3, posted 05-18-2018 11:09 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 750 by AZPaul3, posted 05-22-2018 12:12 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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