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Author Topic:   Creation
ICANT
Member (Idle past 72 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 1 of 1482 (782424)
04-22-2016 3:13 AM


I would like to discuss what the Bible says about creation in comparison to what Science says about creation.

Since my arguments will be based on the Bible this will need to be placed in the Bible Study.

I would like to discuss one point at the time starting with creation according to what the Bible has recorded in it.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

This verse tells us that "In the beginning" is when the heaven and the earth was created.

YEC's tell us that was 6 to 10 thousand years ago.

Science tells us that was 13.4 to 20 billion years in the past. Some scientist have shortened the time to 8 billion years in the past.

The Bible does not say when the beginning was, just that it was. There is no verse in the Bible that says when the beginning was.

Therefore the universe could have began to exist at any point in past duration.

Thus the Bible and science agrees that the universe began to exist and it is old.

Once we have discussed what the bible says about the beginning to exist of the universe and the scientific view we can move on to how God might have accomplished that event.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Pressie, posted 04-22-2016 6:55 AM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 5 by Faith, posted 04-22-2016 7:05 AM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 6 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-22-2016 10:40 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 27 by NoNukes, posted 04-24-2016 12:10 AM ICANT has acknowledged this reply
 Message 29 by Dogmafood, posted 04-24-2016 9:40 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 176 by arachnophilia, posted 05-07-2016 10:01 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 260 by Davidjay, posted 06-05-2017 9:54 AM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 277 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-11-2017 6:26 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 390 by creation, posted 01-14-2018 11:08 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 72 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 7 of 1482 (782430)
04-23-2016 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by New Cat's Eye
04-22-2016 10:40 AM


Hi Cat

Cat Sci writes:

But science disagrees with the that very first verse in the Bible because the earth was not created in the beginning. There's billions of years between the beginning of the universe and the beginning of the earth.

Genesis 1:1 Does not say the heaven and the earth were created at the same moment. It just says they were created in the beginning.

So where is the problem?

The earth we live on today had to have many growing events during it's duration in existence to get to the size it is now with all the buried materials to form the fossil fuels that are in the earth.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-22-2016 10:40 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 04-23-2016 9:22 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 13 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-23-2016 10:29 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 14 by Diomedes, posted 04-23-2016 12:10 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 15 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-23-2016 3:51 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 72 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 16 of 1482 (782456)
04-23-2016 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
04-23-2016 9:22 AM


Hi jar,

jar writes:

The reality though is that the quote is part of a statement said to happen during a single first day.

That of course is patently false.

Why is it false? And why is it impossible which you seem to believe?

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

This text says they were created in one light period.

When you consider God's definition of a day it is entirely possible.

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

A light period is God's definition of a day. Regardless of the duration of that light period.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 04-23-2016 9:22 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 04-23-2016 8:03 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 72 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 17 of 1482 (782457)
04-23-2016 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by New Cat's Eye
04-23-2016 10:29 AM


Hi Cat,

Cat Sci writes:

Its a singular beginning, since they were both created in it, they were created at the same moment. It does not say that the heaven and the earth were created in beginnings.

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

A creation event that took place during a light period which is God's definition of day. At any point in that light period the heavens could have began to exist. Also at any point in that light period the earth could have began to exist as that light period is when both began to exist.

Cat Sci writes:

Those are not beginnings. The earth was created in the beginning, growing events are another thing.

No, but none of those events have taken place in a very long duration.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-23-2016 10:29 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 72 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 19 of 1482 (782459)
04-23-2016 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Diomedes
04-23-2016 12:10 PM


Hi Diomedes
Diomedes writes:

If you look at the first few versus of Genesis, you can see that it is inconsistent with the scientific views:

But the light period the heavens and the earth began to exist in took place prior to Genesis 1:2 according to the text.

There are only 2 creation events after Genesis 1:1.

Genesis 1:20 when God created a great fish.
Genesis 1:27 when God created mankind, male and female.

Nothing else in Genesis 1:2 through 1:30 was created.

Diomedes writes:

It specifically states that both the earth along with it's water surface was created in a realm of 'darkness'; subsequent to that, light came into being.

The text says no such thing.

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

This verse says the earth existed. Not that it was created.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

This verse says the earth was created.

Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

This verse states the earth was created in a light period not a period of darkness.

Diomedes writes:

That is totally backwards from the scientific view of how the universe formed.

I don't know what Bible you use but my KJV as I have quoted to you above says the earth was created in a light period which is God's definition of day. Genesis 1:5

So no the Bible and Science agree that the universe and the earth began to exist in a light period.

The CMB is the leftovers of a light period from a power source much more powerful than all the suns in the universe.

Diomedes writes:

So in essence, light had to exist prior to the earth. The bible states the reverse.

Yes light had to exist prior to the earth.

The Bible in Genesis 2:4 agrees that the earth began to exist in a period of light.

You as most posters around here have a weird concept of what the Bible actually says. Everyone seems to be stuck on the concept that the YEC'S put forth.

Try reading the actual text.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Diomedes, posted 04-23-2016 12:10 PM Diomedes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Diomedes, posted 04-24-2016 12:35 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 33 by kbertsche, posted 04-24-2016 1:26 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 34 by NoNukes, posted 04-24-2016 4:01 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 72 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 20 of 1482 (782460)
04-23-2016 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
04-23-2016 8:03 PM


Hi jar,

jar writes:

Science can tell us times and duration and not utterly worthless imaginings like one light period.

How many light periods was there in the first billion years of the existence of the universe?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 04-23-2016 8:03 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 04-23-2016 9:31 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 72 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 21 of 1482 (782461)
04-23-2016 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Dr Adequate
04-23-2016 3:51 PM


Hi Dr,

Dr writes:

Well, people have always read the Bible as meaning they were created at the same moment.

Not all people just the loudest.

Dr writes:

It would make one wonder why God couldn't write the Bible so as to make himself understood; and what else in the Bible we are currently misreading for want of knowing the facts.

The facts have been recorded for over 2800 years. They have not changed. It is not God's fault if people are so easily led astray. After all they have been doing stupid things every since the man formed from the dust of the ground ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-23-2016 3:51 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-23-2016 11:14 PM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 72 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 23 of 1482 (782463)
04-23-2016 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Pressie
04-22-2016 5:41 AM


Hi Pressie,

Presssie writes:

Science doesn't have anything to say about any form of religious creation.

Its just that the facts recorded in the Bible has been proven by Science.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Pressie, posted 04-22-2016 5:41 AM Pressie has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 72 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 24 of 1482 (782464)
04-23-2016 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by jar
04-23-2016 9:31 PM


Hi jar,

jar writes:

Your question is a classic example of the utter worthlessness of "Biblical Science".

I take your answer to mean you don't have a clue.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 04-23-2016 9:31 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 04-23-2016 10:13 PM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 72 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 35 of 1482 (782486)
04-24-2016 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Dogmafood
04-24-2016 9:40 AM


Re: Immutable word of God
Hi ProtoTypical

ProtoTypical writes:

quote:
א בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ.

Reading the Hebrew from right to left...
The first word (prep) is translated 'In'
The second word (noun) is a compound word translated 'the beginning'
The third word is a kal perfect verb being the completed action of the subject of the verb and is translated 'created' which is a completed job nothing left to do to make the creation perfect.
The fourth word is a noun the subject of the verb and translated 'God'
The fifth word is a sign of the direct object and is not translated.
The sixth word is a dual noun and is the direct object of the verb mistranslated as 'heaven' and should have been 'heavens'.
The seventh word is a sign of the direct object with the conjunction 'and' added. The sign of the direct object is not translated but the conjunction is translated 'and'.
The eighth word is a singular noun a direct object of the verb and is translated earth.

I hope that clarifies what the Hebrew actually says.

Since the writer used a verb that is kal perfect the universe and earth was a completed job. Nothing that took place in Genesis 1:2 through Genesis 1:31 is not part of the original creation event.

ProtoTypical writes:

Why is the King James version more valid than any other interpretation and how can we discuss the nuance of Moses' story of creation without the original language of the text?

The KJV is the best English translation we have. Is it perfect? No you don't have to look no further than Genesis 1:5 to find a mistranslation as the translators translated the Hebrew Cardinal number 'one' as an Ordinal number 'first'

But I am just as comfortable using the Hebrew text as I am the English.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Dogmafood, posted 04-24-2016 9:40 AM Dogmafood has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Dogmafood, posted 04-26-2016 8:21 AM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 72 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 36 of 1482 (782492)
04-24-2016 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Dr Adequate
04-23-2016 11:14 PM


Hi Dr

Dr writes:

Please show me one person, however quiet and self-effacing, who, before we knew the age of the universe and the age of the Earth, read "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the Earth", and interpreted it as meaning that nine billion years passed before the Earth existed.

If memory serves me correctly it was not until the 50's that Science decided the Universe was older than the earth.

In October of 1949 I spoke at a prayer meeting in my church and discussed the fact that there was no way to determine when the beginning was or the creation of the earth. The universe being created first and then the earth in the universe. I quoted the same scriptures at that time that I have quoted in this thread.

Did I know how old the universe or earth were? No and I did not care all I did know was that they were very old.

After my little talk about the creation of the universe and mankind I was not allowed to speak in that church again until 2006.

My belief has not changed from my belief that the universe and earth are very old. In fact I believe Science will find that the universe and earth are much older than mankind believes they are today.

Dr writes:

It would be if he was doing the leading, by writing stuff which was guaranteed (as an omniscient being would have known) to leave absolutely everyone with a false impression.

Everyone has not been led astray.

The man formed from the dust of the ground disobeyed God by choosing to do so, as he had free will to obey or disobey.

Mankind today still has that free will and can choose to believe anything their little minds can dream up.

Dr writes:

It is not, after all, a concept that is difficult to communicate. If I write "There were about nine billion years between the earliest time we know of, and the origin of the Earth", many people might be so far "led astray" as to not believe me; but very few people would be puzzled over what I mean. If I can make myself clear, an omnipotent God could have done so if he pleased.

And what if 10 years from now Science discovers that the Universe is not 13.55 billion years but 27.3 billion years old. Then your statement would be incorrect unless the earth age changed the same amount.

Yet the Bible would still be correct as it says they were created in 'the beginning'.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-23-2016 11:14 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 72 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 37 of 1482 (782493)
04-24-2016 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
04-24-2016 9:57 AM


Re: On why "God's light period" is a worthless content free concept.
Hi jar,

jar writes:

ICANT has claimed that God defined a "Light Period" as when there was light. (actually that is not what the Genesis 1 story says, in that fable the god character calls the light period "day" and the dark period as "night" and never defines a light period.

quote:

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Day = light therefore light = day.
Day does not = darkness.
Darkness = night.

Therefore a period of light regardless of the duration not intrupted by a period of darkness regardless of the duration of said darkness = a light period.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 04-24-2016 9:57 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 04-25-2016 8:29 AM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 72 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 38 of 1482 (782494)
04-24-2016 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Diomedes
04-24-2016 12:35 PM


Hi Diomedes,

Diomedes writes:

What exactly is a 'light period'?

A duration of light that is not interrupted by a period of darkness.

Diomedes writes:

ICANT, I just quoted to you the verse specifically stating that 'In the beginning, god CREATED the heavens and the earth. The word 'created' is right there.

Message 19

ICANT writes:

But the light period the heavens and the earth began to exist in took place prior to Genesis 1:2 according to the text.

There are only 2 creation events after Genesis 1:1.

Genesis 1:20 when God created a great fish.
Genesis 1:27 when God created mankind, male and female.

Nothing else in Genesis 1:2 through 1:30 was created.

You need to read my post.

I stated there was 2 creation events after Genesis 1:1 and gave the verses in which something was created.

There are only 3 creation events in the Bible where God is the subject of the verb, and they are listed above.

There were no other creation events in Genesis.

Diomedes writes:

Did you by chance write your own bible or something?

I use the King James version or the Hebrew text your choice.


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Diomedes, posted 04-24-2016 12:35 PM Diomedes has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 72 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 39 of 1482 (782495)
04-24-2016 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by kbertsche
04-24-2016 1:15 PM


Re: The heavens and the earth
Hi kbertsche

kbertsche writes:

"the heavens and the earth" (Heb: et ha-shamayyim w-et ha-'aretz) is a Hebrew idiom, meaning "everything".

I can not find "the heavens and the earth" listed as an idiom anywhere in any of my Hebrew grammar books.

Could you tell me where I can find that reference?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by kbertsche, posted 04-24-2016 1:15 PM kbertsche has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by kbertsche, posted 04-26-2016 1:33 AM ICANT has responded

  
ICANT
Member (Idle past 72 days)
Posts: 6426
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 40 of 1482 (782496)
04-25-2016 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by kbertsche
04-24-2016 1:26 PM


Hi kbertsche

kbertsche writes:

ICANT, I think it pushes the text a bit too far to insist that the universe began "in a light period". The phrase "in the day that x" is an idiom, simply meaning "when". (And most modern translations translate Gen 2:4 in this way.)

I can not find any listing in ancient Hebrew of 'in the day' being an idiom. The first idiom I find listed is in Genesis 4:6.

Do you think the universe began in total darkness?

Does the Bible say God called the light day? Genesis 1:5
Does the Bible say God called the darkness night? Genesis 1:5

Light = day = a duration of light, that is not interrupted by night as the day will end with the darkness of night.

Therefore the Hebrew noun in Genesis 2:4 translated day would be a duration of light.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by kbertsche, posted 04-24-2016 1:26 PM kbertsche has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by NoNukes, posted 04-25-2016 2:55 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 55 by kbertsche, posted 04-26-2016 2:10 AM ICANT has responded

  
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