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Author Topic:   Creation
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8333
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 333 of 1482 (815654)
07-22-2017 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 332 by Tom Larkin
07-22-2017 11:19 AM


Re: Alignment Evolution and Genesis
Tom writes:

......and that men and women trained in science are rejecting scripture when there is no need, they are not mutually exclusive studies.

This statement makes no sense to me, what's your point?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-22-2017 11:19 AM Tom Larkin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-22-2017 12:14 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8333
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 335 of 1482 (815657)
07-22-2017 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 334 by Tom Larkin
07-22-2017 12:14 PM


Re: Alignment Evolution and Genesis
Tom writes:

I have heard people say "I don't believe in God, I believe in science" when there is no need to choose between the two.

Well that's just wrong on several levels. The two things are obviously not mutually exclusive, millions of scientists believe in god and gods. I suspect you're misinterpreting what they say or what they mean.

In any case, belief is not an appropiate word to use when discussing science

It was only until I studied it in detail, saw how it is aligned and completely consistent with the new testament and the vast amount of prophecy that has already been fulfilled, that I accepted it as the Word of God. Jesus is an active participant in the Old testament, he is called "the Angel of the Lord" (see Zechariah 3 for one of many examples)

Prophecy aligns with science? What cobblers, you're simply doing what all belivers do - rationalising and apologetics for an already held belief.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by Tom Larkin, posted 07-22-2017 12:14 PM Tom Larkin has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8333
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.4


(1)
Message 414 of 1482 (827267)
01-21-2018 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 413 by creation
01-21-2018 2:49 PM


Re: Creation
creation writes:

Yet there will be. That tells me science doesn't really know how the sun works...or will work.

You must be some kind of undiscovered genius - do you work as a clerk in a patent office by any chance?

Anyhoo, let's see your workings. Out with it, this is your second Nobel Prize chance.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 413 by creation, posted 01-21-2018 2:49 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 415 by creation, posted 01-22-2018 9:50 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8333
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.4


(1)
Message 416 of 1482 (827300)
01-22-2018 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 415 by creation
01-22-2018 9:50 AM


Re: Creation
creation writes:

It is elementary that if the bible is true, that the sun does or will not work the way science has conceived.

The test will come. Better have some candles ready I guess. The stars, when they fall, and go out will be at the same time, so we can't blame the sun.

Then we don't have much time, quick, show up the maths.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by creation, posted 01-22-2018 9:50 AM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 417 by creation, posted 01-26-2018 9:59 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8333
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 505 of 1482 (828084)
02-09-2018 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 499 by ICANT
02-09-2018 12:18 PM


Re: Why NOT A Literal Bible?
ICANT writes:

I have had a personal relationship with God since August 24, 1949.
During the course of duration since then He has never told me anyth

How you can interpret normal, everyday events like boy meets girl, boy marries girl, boy and girl live happily ever after as supernatural is beyond me.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 499 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2018 12:18 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 507 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2018 1:53 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8333
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 510 of 1482 (828089)
02-09-2018 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 507 by ICANT
02-09-2018 1:53 PM


Re: Why NOT A Literal Bible?
ICANT writes:

That is simple. I know me and the woman I married is the only woman in the world that would have still been my wife after 60 years of putting up with me. Much less being happy to remain my wife.

Well first off that is highly unlikely to be true and also impossible to know but even if it was true it's oviously no miracle.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 507 by ICANT, posted 02-09-2018 1:53 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 512 by ICANT, posted 02-10-2018 1:57 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8333
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.4


(1)
Message 513 of 1482 (828102)
02-10-2018 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 512 by ICANT
02-10-2018 1:57 AM


Re: Why NOT A Literal Bible?
ICANT writes:

How many people do you know who have been married to the same woman they first married for 60 years?

Both my own parents and my wife's parents were married for over 60 years.

You realise that had I personally known no-one it still wouldn't be a miracle?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 512 by ICANT, posted 02-10-2018 1:57 AM ICANT has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8333
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 523 of 1482 (828151)
02-11-2018 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 518 by ICANT
02-11-2018 4:12 PM


Re: Why NOT A Literal Bible?
ICANT writes:

Well I think every person has a soul mate somewhere in the world that was created just for them. So to find that one out of billions on the very first try I consider to be a miracle.

So my parents and parent in law are 1 in a billion each. That makes me having two of them 1bn x 1bn. Which is a very large and unlikely number. A double miracle, just for me!

Are you not seeing the flaws in this argument yet?

I met my soul mate on the first try when she was 13 and I was 14 then when I was 18 we were married. To me this is just one of God's proofs to me that He is in control.

Childhood sweethearts married a long time is not a rarity. You've hit a sweetspot where people of your age and generation married young and are now able to live longer - no global wars, better health. The modern generation marry late - if at all - and don't expect or even necessarily want to stay with the same person forever.

You're happy with your lot, but you're not unique nor is it remotely miraculous.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 518 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2018 4:12 PM ICANT has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8333
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.4


(1)
Message 624 of 1482 (830474)
03-31-2018 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 622 by Phat
03-30-2018 4:52 PM


Re: Bible
Phat writes:

I suppose human imagination and interpretation of logic, reason, and reality would be all we really have.... which is unsatisfactory in my mind

Which is why you - and others like you - have all this magical thinking, from your religious beliefs through to your gambling, diets and medicines. You're searching for magic and it doesn't exist. Accepting what we have for what it is, would solve all your problems at a stroke.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 622 by Phat, posted 03-30-2018 4:52 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 625 by Faith, posted 03-31-2018 6:05 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 628 by ICANT, posted 04-02-2018 1:12 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8333
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 630 of 1482 (830540)
04-02-2018 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 628 by ICANT
04-02-2018 1:12 PM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:

All you have are assumptions unless you have some scientific facts that I have not been able to find.

Science could present you with gold plated proof but you would still claim it false - because of what you believe.

What we actually have is a large body of consilient evidence over multiple disciplines about how we think things work.

If you have the scientific facts about how the universe began to exist please present them for consideration.

What we know and what we hypothesise about how the universe began is all available for anyone with the education and the mind to grasp it. That excludes both you and I.

But it's not necessary to know everything about the universe to know beyond all doubt that the superstitious beliefs of primitive peopls can be put aside for what they are.

God Bless

Don't waste your bandwith on me, save it for the ignorant.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 628 by ICANT, posted 04-02-2018 1:12 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 632 by ICANT, posted 04-02-2018 6:35 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8333
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 633 of 1482 (830553)
04-02-2018 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 632 by ICANT
04-02-2018 6:35 PM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:

Since the universe is said to be a self contained unit and there is no outside of the universe the only way it could begin to exist is by beginning to exist from non existence which would be an impossibility.

You have absolutelty no idea what is possible and what isn't. Science is beginning to understand some of this stuff. You, like me, are incapable of understanding what we do know let alone what we might get to know. That's why you're thrashing around here not understanding the stuff you talk about. At least have the humility to shut up about stuff you have no understanding of.

The only logical conclusion is that the universe was created by some outside force that most do not comprehend.

This has got nothing to do with logic. The stuff the people that do understand this stuff are not dealing with logic; much of it defies common sense. If and when we understand how the universe arose, it will be with physics and mathematics and only a few people will understand what is being spoken of.

But not understanding everything perfectly is not an excuse for believing superstitios nonsense lacking any evidence at all.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 632 by ICANT, posted 04-02-2018 6:35 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 635 by ICANT, posted 04-02-2018 8:55 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8333
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.4


(1)
Message 636 of 1482 (830559)
04-03-2018 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 635 by ICANT
04-02-2018 8:55 PM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:

I can understand what non existence is, can you?

No, I understand what my own non-exisistence is but I don't understand what the non-existence of the universe is. And neither do you. What does nothing mean? When a physicists says that the universe is expanding, what is it expanding into? Nothing?

If there is non existence that means existence does not exist.

What twaddle. You can't do any of this work using bad logic - or even good logic. It defies that sort of analysis.

So the next time you want to tell me I don't know what is possible and not possible put you brain into gear and know the subject before you type words on the reply form.

You have demonstrated your ignorance of the subject several times when discussing these things with people here that do have the the education to make some inroads on it. You have never formally studied big physics have you? You can't even get the beginnings of the mathematics right. You throw sciency sounding phrases around like T=0 without the first clue what it means. This stuff can only be understood using mathematics but you haven't got a mathematics qualification beyond school have you?

Please explain quantum mechanics to me, using what you call logic.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 635 by ICANT, posted 04-02-2018 8:55 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 641 by ICANT, posted 04-04-2018 12:25 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8333
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.4


(1)
Message 638 of 1482 (830567)
04-03-2018 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 637 by Phat
04-03-2018 9:37 AM


Re: Bible
Wow, woo pooh.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 637 by Phat, posted 04-03-2018 9:37 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8333
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 644 of 1482 (830644)
04-04-2018 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 641 by ICANT
04-04-2018 12:25 PM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:

Your non-existence would mean you did not exist nor had you ever existed. The non-existence of the universe would mean the same thing as the non-existence of Tangle would mean.

Cobblers. Before I existed the atoms I was made of existed and after I cease to exist my atoms will exist. My atoms were there before and will be there after. The concept of no universe is the concept of something rather than nothing. Absolutely nothing. Not just empty space but not even the idea of space. Nothing. Nothing is not something we can deal with with language.

That is what he believes but it would be impossible to expand into nothing.

And that's where your hopelessly lost aren't you? Like almost everyone on the planet you are unable to think beyond the mundane properties of what you physically experience and apply that parochial experince to stuff that is way, way beyond it.

You're worse than ignorant, you think you actually understand the stuff you're talikng about but you don't have the first clue.

I note that you didn't contradict my claim that you have no education in either maths or physics that would give you the right of an opinion and at least a partial chance of discussing this subject with those that have.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 641 by ICANT, posted 04-04-2018 12:25 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 647 by ICANT, posted 04-06-2018 2:47 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8333
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 648 of 1482 (830766)
04-06-2018 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 647 by ICANT
04-06-2018 2:47 PM


Re: Bible
ICANT writes:

I believe that there is a infinite third heaven (universe if you prefer) in which God created our heavens and earth. So our universe could expand as much as God wanted it to expand.

You're at liberty to believe anything at all. But what you believe about your magical being is not relevant to science's current state of knowledge of the universe.

My extent in math was calculus 60 years ago. I know that numbers do not lie. But I also know that man can make numbers say what he wants them to say. Einstein's biggest blunder proves that numbers will say what you want them to..

All the physics I have studied has been in the last 10 years.

So your maths is about the level of a 16 year old and you have no formal education at all in physics, yet you think you can challenge the greatest thinkers in their field - Nobel Prize size accademics. You believers have an ego the size of a planet.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 647 by ICANT, posted 04-06-2018 2:47 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 651 by ICANT, posted 04-06-2018 5:34 PM Tangle has responded

  
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