Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 85 (8936 total)
37 online now:
AZPaul3, caffeine, CosmicChimp, jar, Percy (Admin), Tangle (6 members, 31 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: ssope
Upcoming Birthdays: AdminPhat
Post Volume: Total: 861,651 Year: 16,687/19,786 Month: 812/2,598 Week: 58/251 Day: 11/24 Hour: 2/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Creation
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 1411 of 1482 (845542)
12-16-2018 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1394 by ringo
12-16-2018 1:29 PM


Re: Creation
Hi ringo

ringo writes:

When there is no evidence, the default position is false - i.e unless there is evidence pointing to a cause-effect relationship between prayer and _______, we can not conclude that prayer is effective.

I know prayer works from personal experience but anything I said you would say it was a coincidence regardless of how many events took place due to prayer over one major event.

ringo writes:

Mental illness is another possibility. The person who is hallucinating is the last one to be qualified to determine whether he is hallucinating or not.

My doctor disagrees with you.

ringo writes:

So what? Only one is visible to the naked eye. I said I SAW two at once.

Which is building a strawman.

ringo writes:

You're being illiterate. Read what I wrote.

I did and here it is.

InMessage 1384 you said:

ringo writes:

On two separate occasions I have seen two moons in the sky at the same time, so I don't trust eyewitness testimony - even if it's my own.

But you did not see two moons from earth. You would have to have been on Mars to see 2 moons. So you were either dreaming or either hallucinating.

In Message 1384 you said:

ringo writes:

ICANT writes:

Do you disagree that the White House's existence is an absolute truth?


Of course I do, just like I disagree that two moons are an absolute truth.

My question: Do you disagree that the White House's existence is an absolute truth?

Your answer: Of course I do,

You continued: just like I disagree that two moons are an absolute truth.

Using your straw man as you just said above:

quote:
Only one is visible to the naked eye.

Since you know there is only one moon visible you are arguing and being deliberately obtuse.

ringo writes:

He wasn't "wrong" per se. His understanding was incomplete because he didn't have the information that was found later.

He was wrong because he did not have the correct information to start with.

ringo writes:

Dictionary definitions are for schoolboys.

Dictionaries are what defines the words we use.

You don't like it then write your own dictionary and make up your own definitions.

ringo writes:

Who said it was "better" than a hypothesis? Why should it be?

Then my hypothesis is just as valid.

And don't tell me I don't have any evidence.

The CMBR verifies that there was a light period of unknown duration as it is spread over all of the universe. God created the universe in a light period that lasted for an unknown duration.

The universe is expanding, according to Hubble and the Bible agrees with him as God stretched it out.

I have yet to find the reason science gives for that expansion. What is the cause of it starting to expand?

Inflation is a fantasy according to Penrose who is a giant of physics.
So inflation did not start the expansion. If it did what caused inflation to begin?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1394 by ringo, posted 12-16-2018 1:29 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1416 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-17-2018 10:54 AM ICANT has responded
 Message 1417 by ringo, posted 12-17-2018 11:06 AM ICANT has not yet responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4505
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 1412 of 1482 (845543)
12-17-2018 1:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1406 by ICANT
12-16-2018 8:26 PM


Re: Creation
Sounds like you believe that statement to be an absolute truth.

No, ICANT, as I already said, we don't have absolute truths. Just various levels of confidence in our conclusions based on the efficacy and strength of the data.

And the statement I made enjoys an exceptionally high level of confidence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1406 by ICANT, posted 12-16-2018 8:26 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1413 by ICANT, posted 12-17-2018 10:23 AM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 1415 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-17-2018 10:49 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 1413 of 1482 (845550)
12-17-2018 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1412 by AZPaul3
12-17-2018 1:59 AM


Re: Creation
Hi Paul

AZPaul writes:

And the statement I made enjoys an exceptionally high level of confidence.

Could you present the objective, verifiable, evidence that high level of confidence is based upon?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1412 by AZPaul3, posted 12-17-2018 1:59 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1420 by AZPaul3, posted 12-17-2018 2:51 PM ICANT has responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12792
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1414 of 1482 (845552)
12-17-2018 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1405 by ringo
12-16-2018 3:11 PM


Re: Creation
  • It prevents the fear of our species becoming orphans in a vast indifferent universe.

    It gives us the security of a benign and loving leader who knows the territory...after all, the foot soldiers know the territory yet are helpless o change the war, whereas the one who left the Pentagon and is on the front line with them can do both.\

    You will *sigh* as always argue that there is no evidence of such a God or leader being omnipresent, which gets us back to the necessity of belief---for some. Others of you have your own belief. or none at all.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1405 by ringo, posted 12-16-2018 3:11 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1418 by ringo, posted 12-17-2018 11:13 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

      
  • Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 12792
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1415 of 1482 (845553)
    12-17-2018 10:49 AM
    Reply to: Message 1412 by AZPaul3
    12-17-2018 1:59 AM


    Re: Creation
    Perhaps data brings you comfort. Does logic, reason, and reality seem comfortable? Perhaps in ICANTs experience, being freely able to pray and meditate on the Bible gives him comfort. We are a product of our experiences.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1412 by AZPaul3, posted 12-17-2018 1:59 AM AZPaul3 has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1421 by AZPaul3, posted 12-17-2018 3:11 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

      
    Thugpreacha
    Member
    Posts: 12792
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 1416 of 1482 (845554)
    12-17-2018 10:54 AM
    Reply to: Message 1411 by ICANT
    12-16-2018 10:10 PM


    Re: Creation
    ICANT writes:

    The universe is expanding, according to Hubble and the Bible agrees with him as God stretched it out.

    I have yet to find the reason science gives for that expansion. What is the cause of it starting to expand?

    Inflation is a fantasy according to Penrose who is a giant of physics.
    So inflation did not start the expansion. If it did what caused inflation to begin?

    Good point, though some will argue that there was no time in the Beginning. They eliminate God as a factor in the equation because they cannot prove Him to their satisfaction. A case can be made biblically that belief leads to proof. Scientifically, this cannot be grasped and in fact is either in the scientist or not. Regardless, belief should not affect scientific results.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

    Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
    In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
    ~Stile


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1411 by ICANT, posted 12-16-2018 10:10 PM ICANT has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1419 by Tangle, posted 12-17-2018 12:31 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
     Message 1422 by ICANT, posted 12-17-2018 8:58 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 17281
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.5


    Message 1417 of 1482 (845556)
    12-17-2018 11:06 AM
    Reply to: Message 1411 by ICANT
    12-16-2018 10:10 PM


    Re: Creation
    ICANT writes:

    I know prayer works from personal experience but anything I said you would say it was a coincidence regardless of how many events took place due to prayer over one major event.


    It's called confirmation bias: If you believe that prayer works, you'll be able to attribute all kinds of things to "answered prayer". But an objective observer will look for a cause-effect relationship.

    ICANT writes:

    ringo writes:

    Mental illness is another possibility. The person who is hallucinating is the last one to be qualified to determine whether he is hallucinating or not.


    My doctor disagrees with you.

    Really? Your doctor doesn't believe in mental illness? He thinks a person can always tell when he's hallucinating? I don't believe you.

    ICANT writes:

    ringo writes:

    I said I SAW two [moons] at once.


    Which is building a strawman.

    How on earth is that a strawman?

    I'll tell you the story:

    In the first instance, I saw one full moon and then another. I quickly noticed that one of them had a smoother surface and its shape was more balloony than loony. Sure enough, I heard on the news later that several people had reported seeing a UFO and the Weather Office had confirmed that it was a weather balloon.

    In the second instance, I was standing in a glass bus shelter when I noticed there was one full moon on the east side and another on the west side. Obviously, one of them was a reflection - but which one? I could have done an experiment - i.e. gone outside of the shelter to eliminate the possibility of reflections - but I figured it out using logic and "assumptions".

    (Solution: The sun had just set in the west (an assumption based on prior observation). The sun is farther away than the moon (an assumption based on prior observation). The moon could not be shining full with the sun behind it; therefore the one in the east must be the real one.)

    Where's the straw?

    ICANT writes:

    But you did not see two moons from earth.


    Yes I did. I saw them as plainly as I see three computers in front of me now. I saw them more directly than I see politicians on TV.

    ICANT writes:

    So you were either dreaming or either hallucinating.


    No. As I explained above, my initial interpretation was flawed, as all eyewitness evidence is flawed.

    ICANT writes:

    Since you know there is only one moon visible you are arguing and being deliberately obtuse.


    I'm illustrating how eyewitness evidence can be wrong. I can misinterpret seeing two moons. You can misinterpret seeing the results of prayer.

    ICANT writes:

    Dictionaries are what defines the words we use.


    Usage is what defines the words we use. Dictionaries only describe the usage.

    ICANT writes:

    ringo writes:

    Who said it was "better" than a hypothesis? Why should it be?


    Then my hypothesis is just as valid.

    Again, you're not reading what I wrote. I was replying to your statement in Message 1389: "So a scientific fact has no certain or fixed; provisional making it no better than a hypothesis." I said that a hypothesis is not "better" than a fact. I did not say that one hypothesis is as good as another.

    ICANT writes:

    And don't tell me I don't have any evidence.


    You don't have evidence that confirms your hypothesis and denies another.

    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1411 by ICANT, posted 12-16-2018 10:10 PM ICANT has not yet responded

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 17281
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.5


    Message 1418 of 1482 (845558)
    12-17-2018 11:13 AM
    Reply to: Message 1414 by Thugpreacha
    12-17-2018 10:47 AM


    Re: Creation
    Phat writes:

    It prevents the fear of our species becoming orphans in a vast indifferent universe.


    I asked: In what way is God "necessary"?

    The belief in a god might alleviate that fear in some believers but I didn't ask you why the belief is necessary. I asked you why the god is necessary.

    Phat writes:

    You will *sigh* as always argue that there is no evidence of such a God or leader being omnipresent....


    Or present at all.

    And our geese will blot out the sun.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1414 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-17-2018 10:47 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 7067
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 4.8


    Message 1419 of 1482 (845564)
    12-17-2018 12:31 PM
    Reply to: Message 1416 by Thugpreacha
    12-17-2018 10:54 AM


    Re: Creation
    Phat writes:

    Good point, though some will argue that there was no time in the Beginning.

    And some argue that there was no beginning.

    They eliminate God as a factor in the equation because they cannot prove Him to their satisfaction.

    God can't be in the equation because he's not a mathematical value. Universal variable constants are not allowed

    A case can be made biblically that belief leads to proof.

    Uh? Really? Do tell.

    Scientifically, this cannot be grasped and in fact is either in the scientist or not. Regardless, belief should not affect scientific results.

    Belief cannot affect results unless the scientist is doing it wrong and if he is, others will correct him.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1416 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-17-2018 10:54 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 4505
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 4.0


    Message 1420 of 1482 (845585)
    12-17-2018 2:51 PM
    Reply to: Message 1413 by ICANT
    12-17-2018 10:23 AM


    Re: Creation
    Could you present the objective, verifiable, evidence that high level of confidence is based upon?

    Easy.

    The total lack of any objective verifiable evidence in favor of your god proposal.The total lack of any objective verifiable evidence in favor of your god as absolute truth. The total lack of any objective verifiable evidence of any absolute truth. The total lack of any objective verifiable evidence in favor of any religious supernatural anything anywhere in this universe.

    All pending any future observations, of course, as is the scientific way.

    And since this species has been looking for millennia without any objective verifiable evidence having been found leads to a high confidence level that there may be none to be found.

    All pending any future observations, of course, as is the scientific way.

    Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1413 by ICANT, posted 12-17-2018 10:23 AM ICANT has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1423 by ICANT, posted 12-17-2018 9:03 PM AZPaul3 has responded

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 4505
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 4.0


    Message 1421 of 1482 (845590)
    12-17-2018 3:11 PM
    Reply to: Message 1415 by Thugpreacha
    12-17-2018 10:49 AM


    Re: Creation
    Perhaps in ICANTs experience, being freely able to pray and meditate on the Bible gives him comfort.

    I have no objection to anyone being wrong. And I have no objection to anyone rejecting my corrections and continuing to be wrong. That's life in a secular world.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1415 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-17-2018 10:49 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

      
    ICANT
    Member
    Posts: 6187
    From: SSC
    Joined: 03-12-2007


    Message 1422 of 1482 (845618)
    12-17-2018 8:58 PM
    Reply to: Message 1416 by Thugpreacha
    12-17-2018 10:54 AM


    Re: Creation
    Hi Phat

    Phat writes:

    Regardless, belief should not affect scientific results.

    But Phat all they have is faith in their belief that the universe just is for no reason. There was no cause it just is.

    There is no objective verifiable evidence to support the BBT. You have seen the run around I have been getting for the last 10 years.

    Although cavediver and Son Goku both said a new theory is needed.
    But these guys can't be bothered with the facts as they don't believe in facts.

    God Bless,


    "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1416 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-17-2018 10:54 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

        
    ICANT
    Member
    Posts: 6187
    From: SSC
    Joined: 03-12-2007


    Message 1423 of 1482 (845619)
    12-17-2018 9:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 1420 by AZPaul3
    12-17-2018 2:51 PM


    Re: Creation
    Hi Paul

    AZPaul writes:

    Easy.

    If it is so easy why didn't you present your evidence.

    Assertions don't count as objective, verifiable, evidence.

    Did you not present any as you don't have any?

    God Bless,


    "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1420 by AZPaul3, posted 12-17-2018 2:51 PM AZPaul3 has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1424 by AZPaul3, posted 12-17-2018 11:13 PM ICANT has responded

        
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 4505
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 4.0


    Message 1424 of 1482 (845624)
    12-17-2018 11:13 PM
    Reply to: Message 1423 by ICANT
    12-17-2018 9:03 PM


    Re: Creation
    Did you not present any as you don't have any?

    The evidence is there. You just cannot see it. You don't want to see it.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1423 by ICANT, posted 12-17-2018 9:03 PM ICANT has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1425 by ICANT, posted 12-18-2018 3:52 AM AZPaul3 has responded

      
    ICANT
    Member
    Posts: 6187
    From: SSC
    Joined: 03-12-2007


    Message 1425 of 1482 (845628)
    12-18-2018 3:52 AM
    Reply to: Message 1424 by AZPaul3
    12-17-2018 11:13 PM


    Re: Creation
    Hi Paul

    AZPaul writes:

    The evidence is there. You just cannot see it. You don't want to see it.

    The evidence is where?

    I don't read it in any of your posts.

    You never present evidence to support your view or to refute anything I say.

    Assertions are not evidence.

    God Bless,


    "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1424 by AZPaul3, posted 12-17-2018 11:13 PM AZPaul3 has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1426 by AZPaul3, posted 12-18-2018 7:34 AM ICANT has responded

        
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.0 Beta
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019