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Author Topic:   This Bathroom Law Confusion
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 166 (782869)
04-29-2016 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
04-29-2016 3:37 PM


Some say it's worries about molesting of children, which doesn't make sense as I say; others say it's about "privacy." Are they just not imagining the actual situation or is there a problem I'm not grasping?
What you describe are exactly the arguments used by the governor of NC when defending the current law making transgender people go to their birth certificate defined bathroom. So I suggest that there is likely no hidden problem that you are not grasping.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 04-29-2016 3:37 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 166 (782877)
04-30-2016 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Minnemooseus
04-29-2016 11:51 PM


Re: Transgender - the grey zone?
Which restroom should the physically male but psychologically female individual use?
The one that does not risk her getting the shite kicked out of her in a situation where there are next to no protections whatsoever for LGBT individuals?
And not that you've mentioned it but...
As for the privacy issue, I thought women's bathrooms provided privacy even from other women, but perhaps my impression is naive. Do women actual see each others' naughty bits when they are in the ladies room?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Minnemooseus, posted 04-29-2016 11:51 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by AZPaul3, posted 04-30-2016 2:02 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 166 (782928)
04-30-2016 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Faith
04-30-2016 8:33 PM


Re: public awareness project
So it's just a few who are objecting to laws allowing people to choose which restroom to use, just a very few influencing governors of states to come up with contrary laws? Really?
No, the numbers objecting are not small. The question you are addressing is whether the objectors are the majority. The answer is that the people objecting do not appear to be in the majority. And their reasons appear to be exactly the ones that you yourself put down as being unimportant or fabricated. So why would it be important whether their views were the majority in that case?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Faith, posted 04-30-2016 8:33 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 04-30-2016 9:04 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 166 (783016)
05-02-2016 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Faith
05-02-2016 11:03 AM


Re: No more M/F bathrooms
Are there urinals in this co-ed bathroom? If not, that says something about why we don't mix the sexes in itself. Privacy IS important, why push the envelope?
Not a great argument. Public bathrooms have urinals for reasons that have very little to do with privacy and more to do with getting people in and out of the bathroom quickly while keeping pee off of the seats. Nobody has urinals in their home, and it is not that unusual to go into a public men's room with only toilets and no urinals.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Faith, posted 05-02-2016 11:03 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 05-02-2016 1:04 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 166 (783021)
05-02-2016 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Faith
05-02-2016 1:04 PM


Re: No more M/F bathrooms
But I might ask why nobody cares about pee getting on the co-ed seats.
Where do you get that idea? Isn't the solution to the problem of pee on seats for men to put the seat up first?
OR, come to think of it, the perennial problem women complain about of the seat being left up.
The solution we use at our house is to have men put the seat back down and not to kick men out of the bathroom.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 05-02-2016 1:04 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 05-02-2016 2:00 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 94 by anglagard, posted 05-02-2016 8:37 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 166 (783037)
05-02-2016 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
05-02-2016 2:00 PM


Re: No more M/F bathrooms
We are talking about STRANGERS in a unisex bathroom.
I thought we were talking about something substantial until you started complaining about urinals and the toilet seat being up. Then the concerns seemed to diminish into something pretty picayune.
Nothing really earth shattering about a unisex bathroom. As best as I can tell, they seem to work fine despite the fact that Kroger having them seems to have set some people off.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 05-02-2016 2:00 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 05-02-2016 3:06 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 91 of 166 (783046)
05-02-2016 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Faith
05-02-2016 3:06 PM


Re: No more M/F bathrooms
Why should women have to put up with the bad habits of strange men when it's enough of a pain to deal with it at home? It's all a big pain.
Having to deal with the toilet seat being down versus forcing transgender folk into the wrong bathroom?
If they "work fine" it's only for the young who have been brainwashed by the Left into accepting the Progressive rationale and not noticing the problems.
Yikes.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 05-02-2016 3:06 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 05-02-2016 6:05 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 05-02-2016 7:22 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 95 of 166 (783055)
05-02-2016 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Faith
05-02-2016 7:22 PM


Re: No more M/F bathrooms
'VE SAID A MILLION TIMES ON THIS THREAD THAT I DON'T SEE A PROBLEM WITH TRANSGENDER MEN IN THE WOMEN"S ROOM. Maybe I should, many others do, maybe I'll see it differently later, but at the moment I don't. THE SEAT ISSUE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS.
You are the one who brought this stuff up. I never thought it made a single bit of difference.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 05-02-2016 7:22 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Faith, posted 05-02-2016 10:06 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 166 (783059)
05-02-2016 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Faith
05-02-2016 10:06 PM


Re: No more M/F bathrooms
As so often happens I have NO idea what you are talking about. Never thought WHAT made any difference?
Sigh. Men leaving the toilet seat up is not an important issue in the subject of public toilets regardless of whether we are talking about reasons not to have unisex toilets or reasons not to allow transgender persons in the ladies room. You are the one who brought the issue up, not me.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Faith, posted 05-02-2016 10:06 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Faith, posted 05-02-2016 10:15 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 132 of 166 (783490)
05-05-2016 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Faith
05-04-2016 1:33 AM


I can understand the opposing view up to a point but have nevertheless said I think it's based on not recognizing the actuality of the situation.
I think many of us recognize your position on this issue. Where the departure comes is when you place the responsibility for not recognizing the actuality solely on the people bearing the brunt of the law that works against them.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 05-04-2016 1:33 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Faith, posted 05-05-2016 7:23 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 140 of 166 (788906)
08-07-2016 9:46 AM


An update on NC law HB2. The NBA indicated that it was unwilling to host next years All-Star game in Charlotte unless the law was changed. NC modified the law to provide a path for transgenders who have undergone surgery to have their sexual identity changed from that on the birth certificate. Essentially nobody who was opposed to the original bill considers this change to be an adequate remedy, and the NBA did decide to remove the All-Star game from Charlotte.
And of course their is a gubernatorial election this year, and current Governor Pat McCrory is doubling down on HB2. Republicans are attempting to blame democrats for the loss of the All-Star game and other business that has been lost so far in response to the passing of HB2.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 166 (788922)
08-07-2016 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by frako
08-07-2016 9:14 AM


Why not just make unisex bathrooms, wtih stalls containing a toilet and a pissuar (no idea on how its spelled)
Do you mean make all of the bathrooms that way or are you suggesting just adding a couple of colored only bathrooms so that folks can out themselves by going there.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by frako, posted 08-07-2016 9:14 AM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by frako, posted 08-08-2016 9:25 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 146 of 166 (788994)
08-09-2016 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by frako
08-09-2016 3:01 AM


Not single ocupancy, unisex bathrooms, just remove te women and men sign on the door, and install some pisuars, in the women stall's, wall in the men pissuars turning them in to stalls and add toilets to the stalls.
That's actually way more expensive that what is needed. Men are perfectly capable of properly using the facilities in a woman's room without modification, and all men's rooms already have stalls that women and anyone else can use.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by frako, posted 08-09-2016 3:01 AM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by frako, posted 08-09-2016 3:36 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 148 of 166 (789010)
08-09-2016 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by frako
08-09-2016 3:36 AM


ok, so lets make it happen.
They tried that in Charlotte, but the state legislature stepped in to say that you could not do that in any government building in the entire state. I think the most serious places that are impacted are public schools, universities and technical colleges
However, the bathroom stuff is only one part of the problem. Additionally, the bill makes discrimination against transgender and gay folks legal under state law, and prevents any local government or municipality from passing their own anti-discrimination laws/ordinances. If people are really in doubt about the intent of HB2 being to hurt folks, I recommend reading the entire bill.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by frako, posted 08-09-2016 3:36 AM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Theodoric, posted 08-09-2016 12:37 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 150 by frako, posted 08-09-2016 2:16 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 152 of 166 (789049)
08-10-2016 3:18 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Minnemooseus
08-09-2016 11:26 PM


My problem is that the term "self-identifying" has been used a lot, without a clear definition of what is meant. To me, a person who is "presenting as" a woman can at the same time be "self-identifying" as being a man.
I think the confusion here is that nobody other than you intended to distinguish between "presenting as" and "self-identifying" and it was not clear that you were doing that. (Not saying that the miscommunication was your fault)
Now that you've made the distinction even more clearly, I agree that there is an issue. Most folks likely meant "self-identifying" to cover all cases. But I wonder if there are a significant number of folks who are not making some attempt to present themselves as a gender different from their biological one, but who still want to go to a bathroom different from their biological gender. I'm guessing that to be a rare situation, but maybe someone else can provide some input.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Minnemooseus, posted 08-09-2016 11:26 PM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

  
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