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Author Topic:   This Bathroom Law Confusion
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3947
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 151 of 166 (789045)
08-09-2016 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Rrhain
08-09-2016 1:15 AM


Here's a thought: Why don't you ask him? Because you do know that such a person understands that he is presenting as male, yes?
Don't know him, so I can't ask him. But since he understands he is "presenting as male" and thus using the male room, no problem. It seems that "presenting as" overrides "self-identifying" is cases where the two may be in conflict. And there isn't any such conflict in this case.
My problem is that the term "self-identifying" has been used a lot, without a clear definition of what is meant. To me, a person who is "presenting as" a woman can at the same time be "self-identifying" as being a man. And it seemed that there was a broad feeling that a person should be able to choose the room based on "self-identity". Which seems to say that a woman to man transsexual who is at a "presenting as" a woman stage should be free to use the "self-identity" male room.
Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Rrhain, posted 08-09-2016 1:15 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by NoNukes, posted 08-10-2016 3:18 AM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied
 Message 154 by Rrhain, posted 08-11-2016 1:58 AM Minnemooseus has not replied
 Message 157 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-11-2016 4:47 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 152 of 166 (789049)
08-10-2016 3:18 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Minnemooseus
08-09-2016 11:26 PM


My problem is that the term "self-identifying" has been used a lot, without a clear definition of what is meant. To me, a person who is "presenting as" a woman can at the same time be "self-identifying" as being a man.
I think the confusion here is that nobody other than you intended to distinguish between "presenting as" and "self-identifying" and it was not clear that you were doing that. (Not saying that the miscommunication was your fault)
Now that you've made the distinction even more clearly, I agree that there is an issue. Most folks likely meant "self-identifying" to cover all cases. But I wonder if there are a significant number of folks who are not making some attempt to present themselves as a gender different from their biological one, but who still want to go to a bathroom different from their biological gender. I'm guessing that to be a rare situation, but maybe someone else can provide some input.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Minnemooseus, posted 08-09-2016 11:26 PM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3947
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 153 of 166 (789118)
08-10-2016 10:21 PM


"Transgender dilemma" topic at Secular Cafe
Related reading material, in a topic started by a transgender person:
http://www.secularcafe.org/showthread.php?t=36364
Moose

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Rrhain, posted 08-11-2016 2:10 AM Minnemooseus has replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 96 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


(3)
Message 154 of 166 (789124)
08-11-2016 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Minnemooseus
08-09-2016 11:26 PM


Minnemooseus responds to me:
quote:
Don't know him, so I can't ask him.
Then as the Great Dread Pirate Roberts put it:
Get used to disappointment.
Since you don't know him and can't ask, why are you so concerned? Why does the choice of bathroom of someone you don't know and will never encounter bother you so much that you want to go out of your way to make sure that he stands a good chance of getting assaulted?
quote:
It seems that "presenting as" overrides "self-identifying"
No, try again. Think about what you said, consider the assumptions that you're making, and try again.
Hint: Trans people aren't in it for the thrill.
quote:
And it seemed that there was a broad feeling that a person should be able to choose the room based on "self-identity".
And they do. Once again, you're making a tremendous assumption that you need to get over. Think about the implications of what you're saying and try again.
quote:
Which seems to say that a woman to man transsexual who is at a "presenting as" a woman stage should be free to use the "self-identity" male room.
And why would they do that? You've fallen for the same bone-headed, transphobic assumption. Why do you think you know more about what's going on inside a trans person's head than they do?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Minnemooseus, posted 08-09-2016 11:26 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 96 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


(1)
Message 155 of 166 (789125)
08-11-2016 2:10 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Minnemooseus
08-10-2016 10:21 PM


Re: "Transgender dilemma" topic at Secular Cafe
You realize that that article isn't helping you, yes? 10th paragraph gives the lie to your argument.
Trans people are highly aware of the trappings of gender and work to manage their way through the world. Why do you seek to substitute your understanding of their lives?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Minnemooseus, posted 08-10-2016 10:21 PM Minnemooseus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Minnemooseus, posted 08-12-2016 5:09 PM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 96 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 156 of 166 (789127)
08-11-2016 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by frako
08-09-2016 3:01 AM


frako responds to me:
quote:
Not single ocupancy, unisex bathrooms, just remove te women and men sign on the door, and install some pisuars, in the women stall's, wall in the men pissuars turning them in to stalls and add toilets to the stalls.
You'd still need a massive retrofit. Again, there are regulations regarding how many facilities must be available given the number of people who are going to be using them (Title 29,  1910.141, Table J-1). That's part of the reason why there is a line for the women's room but not the men's room: The existence of a urinal means you can have more toilet facilities for men in the same space as you can for women. You can have a toilet and two urinals in the place of two toilets. To do what you're suggesting would reduce the number of points per room which means you need more space in order to have enough.
I'm not complaining about the idea. I'm saying it's going to be a tough sell given that current buildings wouldn't be able to meet regulations without major redesigns.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by frako, posted 08-09-2016 3:01 AM frako has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 157 of 166 (789207)
08-11-2016 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Minnemooseus
08-09-2016 11:26 PM


To me, a person who is "presenting as" a woman can at the same time be "self-identifying" as being a man.
It happened to me once (I'm a regular dude). Back in college, I grew my hair down to my elbows. Mostly kept it in a ponytail though. Anyways, I was hanging out with a friend in the girls' dorm and really had to pee and I didn't feel like going over the boys' dorm. So, I let my hair down and looked down at the floor and presented as a female, while self-identifying as a male, so I could go use the girls' bathroom and not get in trouble. I even turned around and sat down in the stall to pee. There were other girls in there but they didn't notice.
And it seemed that there was a broad feeling that a person should be able to choose the room based on "self-identity".
Well shit, I chose to use the room based on what I was presenting as out of convenience.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Minnemooseus, posted 08-09-2016 11:26 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by NoNukes, posted 08-11-2016 5:46 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 158 of 166 (789222)
08-11-2016 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by New Cat's Eye
08-11-2016 4:47 PM


(I'm a regular dude)...I even turned around and sat down in the stall to pee. There were other girls in there but they didn't notice.
"Other girls?" Besides you? You just outed yourself, "regular dude".
Okay as long as we're sharing... Once I pulled into a Kangaroo service station because I had been driving a long time and I needed to take a pee quite urgently. The men's room was locked, but my need to pee would not subside by "walking it off", so I used the ladies room(it was single use), locking the door behind me. If there had been a law against similar to HB2 that applied to business facilities, I likely would have had to piss my pants to avoid breaking the law instead of merely risking embarrassment upon leaving.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-11-2016 4:47 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by ringo, posted 08-12-2016 12:02 PM NoNukes has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 500 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 159 of 166 (789272)
08-12-2016 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by NoNukes
08-11-2016 5:46 PM


NoNukes writes:
(it was single use)
It would be pretty stupid to pass a law regulating single-occupancy bathrooms by one gender or another.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by NoNukes, posted 08-11-2016 5:46 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by NoNukes, posted 08-12-2016 2:57 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 160 of 166 (789276)
08-12-2016 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by ringo
08-12-2016 12:02 PM


It would be pretty stupid to pass a law regulating single-occupancy bathrooms by one gender or another.
I suppose so. But the men's bathroom is single-occupancy by convention only. It has a sink, a urinal, and a stall. No reason why two folks could not use the thing even simultaneously. But generally folks tend to lock the door when they go in.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by ringo, posted 08-12-2016 12:02 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3947
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 161 of 166 (789285)
08-12-2016 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Rrhain
08-11-2016 2:10 AM


The argument I never made
You realize that that article isn't helping you, yes? 10th paragraph gives the lie to your argument.
The 10th paragraph:
quote:
I've envisioned myself, looking like I do and walking into a woman's restroom. I visualize the wide-eyed stares and those ladies quickly grabbing their property and leaving. What is worse is the idea of scaring the crap out of the very young girls who I envy so much. I don't know what would be worse. To drive them out of a place which should be a sanctuary for them or having the reality of being rejected, yet again for having the curse of being born in a man's body.
Find anywhere where I advocate that a male appearing person should use a woman's restroom. Don't blow too much time trying, because it never happened.
A more substantial message later (maybe).
Moose
Added by edit - By the way, all my messages prior to posting the link to the Skeptic Cafe topic were done before I ever saw that topic.
Edited by Minnemooseus, : Added by edit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Rrhain, posted 08-11-2016 2:10 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by NoNukes, posted 08-13-2016 7:26 AM Minnemooseus has replied
 Message 165 by Rrhain, posted 08-14-2016 5:34 AM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 162 of 166 (789323)
08-13-2016 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Minnemooseus
08-12-2016 5:09 PM


Re: The argument I never made
Find anywhere where I advocate that a male appearing person should use a woman's restroom.
I think you miss the point. The article talks about a dilemma held by a transgender individual. Regardless of what this person looks like, they and not the rest of us ought to decide which bathroom he goes into.
When this person dresses up as a woman, there is still no comfort with going into the ladies room and would perhaps rather they would rather take the chance on getting pummeled in the mens room or finding some other alterntive. But that is up to her and not us.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Minnemooseus, posted 08-12-2016 5:09 PM Minnemooseus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Minnemooseus, posted 08-13-2016 9:12 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3947
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 163 of 166 (789357)
08-13-2016 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by NoNukes
08-13-2016 7:26 AM


Re: The argument I never made
Regardless of what this person looks like, they and not the rest of us ought to decide which bathroom he goes into.
So a transgender person who physically appears to be male but is psychologically female should be free to use the ladies room. That may be fine and dandy morally and legally, but even the most pro-trans people think that that will cause, at the minimum, a lot of tension for all parties involved.
As I understand it, Rrhain does not advocate that a male appearing person use the ladies room, nor does the transgender person from the Skeptic Cafe site topic. Nor do I.
Or am I wrong about Rrhain's position:
Rrhain, in message 34, quoted by me in message 38 writes:
The question Moose raises is trivially answered: You use the bathroom that is appropriate. One of the things about being trans is that you are putting in the effort to be the sex you identifying with. Thus, despite the fact that you may have not had any surgery, you are doing all the other things that signify your gender (because sex is not gender) and thus, you use the bathroom that corresponds with your gender identity.
I repeat:
...you use the bathroom that corresponds with your gender identity.
Define "gender identity". To me, that is the psychological identity.
So a very male appearing but psychological female person should use the ladies room? Rrhain, rather than a long message saying I'm an ignorant transphobe, how about a simple yes or no answer to that question.
And I think what may or may not be hiding under clothing is irrelevant.
Moose

Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Evolution - Changes in the environment, caused by the interactions of the components of the environment.
"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." - Bruce Graham
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." - John Kenneth Galbraith
"Yesterday on Fox News, commentator Glenn Beck said that he believes President Obama is a racist. To be fair, every time you watch Glenn Beck, it does get a little easier to hate white people." - Conan O'Brien
"I know a little about a lot of things, and a lot about a few things, but I'm highly ignorant about everything." - Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by NoNukes, posted 08-13-2016 7:26 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by NoNukes, posted 08-13-2016 11:05 PM Minnemooseus has not replied
 Message 166 by Rrhain, posted 08-14-2016 5:49 AM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 164 of 166 (789359)
08-13-2016 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Minnemooseus
08-13-2016 9:12 PM


Re: The argument I never made
So a transgender person who physically appears to be male but is psychologically female should be free to use the ladies room. That may be fine and dandy morally and legally, but even the most pro-trans people think that that will cause, at the minimum, a lot of tension for all parties involved.
What does "appear to be male" mean to you? In the case of this particular article, we are talking about a person who feels unconvincing as a female even when she puts on a dress and uses toilet paper padding. Accordingly, she does not want to go into the ladies room. I am not prepared to force her to use one bathroom or the other by law. Nor am I prepared to tell her to "hold it" until she gets home.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Minnemooseus, posted 08-13-2016 9:12 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member (Idle past 96 days)
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 165 of 166 (789372)
08-14-2016 5:34 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Minnemooseus
08-12-2016 5:09 PM


Minnemooseus responds to me:
quote:
Find anywhere where I advocate that a male appearing person should use a woman's restroom.
Oh, god.
Please, let us not play dumb. It's hard to describe just how off you are in this. The reason you're complaining about "the argument [you] never made" is that nobody accused of making the argument you are whining about. It's like a strawman squared.
Are you really about to require me to repeat every single damned post you've made in this thread to remind you of what you've been saying? You are, aren't you?
Here's you in Message 151
To me, a person who is "presenting as" a woman can at the same time be "self-identifying" as being a man. And it seemed that there was a broad feeling that a person should be able to choose the room based on "self-identity".
So when you then make reference to an article that completely denies that attitude, that tells the tale of a person who understands that their internal feelings and their external presentation are not exactly in sync, for all sorts of reasons, and then directly talks about how they wouldn't do what so many are complaining about (and that you are desperately tap dancing around suggesting they would do) out of a very real understanding and concern about how the other people in the room would react to their presence, you don't get to complain about the "argument [you] didn't make."
You were trying to find some reason to second-guess a person who just wants to pee in peace.
PLEASE, let us not play dumb.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Minnemooseus, posted 08-12-2016 5:09 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
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