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Author Topic:   Iconic Peppered Moth - gene mutation found
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1103 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


(1)
Message 46 of 76 (785449)
06-05-2016 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Faith
06-04-2016 6:15 AM


Re: Yes it's totally weird
If you'd been following my posts you would know that this is exactly what I said would be the situation if the black moth alleles were built in. While the whites were selected the blacks would show up from time to time in heterozygous form and be picked off by predators. It was only when the whites started getting picked off instead (selected against) that the blacks could start to multiply.
But if this is a dominant allele the black moths wouldn't show up 'from time to time'. They would, of necessity, need to be present in every single generation. And they would be selected against - a dominant allele which is selected against will vanish from a population much more quickly than a recessive one, since any individual carrying the allele is subject to whatever causes the negative selection pressure (in this case being easier to eat).
But you even have black moth mutations "happening all along" as if it's that common an event that the same locus has the same mutation over and over again? Is mutation ever described in such terms?
You don't need the exact same mutation. I imagine something like being black can be acheived in a huge diversity of ways. For a similar example in humans, we can see that Europeans and east Asians have light skin due to different mutations. In both cases people moved to higher latitudes where lighter skin would be beneficial, and in both cases a mutation arose which caused lighter skin, but it was not the same in each case. The specific mutation selected for was the one which happened to come along at the right time. The same is true of lactase persistence in humans, northern Europeans and east Africans both evolved lactase persistence independently and the genetic basis is different in each case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 06-04-2016 6:15 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 06-05-2016 1:01 PM caffeine has replied

  
Faith 
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Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 47 of 76 (785456)
06-05-2016 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by caffeine
06-05-2016 10:10 AM


Re: Yes it's totally weird
If you'd been following my posts you would know that this is exactly what I said would be the situation if the black moth alleles were built in. While the whites were selected the blacks would show up from time to time in heterozygous form and be picked off by predators. It was only when the whites started getting picked off instead (selected against) that the blacks could start to multiply.
But if this is a dominant allele the black moths wouldn't show up 'from time to time'. They would, of necessity, need to be present in every single generation.
But in very small numbers, because they WOULD be picked off by predators. Not all that show up but most. And all I was doing was saying exactly what jar had already said about what would have had to happen, only in my scenario it's not a mutation, just a naturally-occurring alternate form of the gene. According to the study, however, it's not a gene that normally codes for color. But my point was that it shouldn't matter if it's a mutation or a built-in variation, it can only arise sporadically and couldn't survive in great numbers. If it survived at all.
And they would be selected against - a dominant allele which is selected against will vanish from a population much more quickly than a recessive one, since any individual carrying the allele is subject to whatever causes the negative selection pressure (in this case being easier to eat).
Right, but is it more unlikely that the allele would not completely disappear but remain and show up rarely, than a mutation simply showing up just in time to be selected against the black trees? It seems to me every possible scenario has some problem attached to it.
But you even have black moth mutations "happening all along" as if it's that common an event that the same locus has the same mutation over and over again? Is mutation ever described in such terms?
You don't need the exact same mutation. I imagine something like being black can be acheived in a huge diversity of ways.
Well the study pinned it down to a specific change in a specific gene at a specific time -- the year 1819 -- and a gene not normally associated with color.
For a similar example in humans, we can see that Europeans and east Asians have light skin due to different mutations. In both cases people moved to higher latitudes where lighter skin would be beneficial, and in both cases a mutation arose which caused lighter skin, but it was not the same in each case. The specific mutation selected for was the one which happened to come along at the right time.
Then how is this "mutation" if it "comes along at the right time?" Is mutation a random accident of replication or is it an inevitable requirement of genetics? Which is it????
There is absolutely no reason why skin color has to be the result of a mutation anyway. There is a huge range of skin color built into the human genome going back to Adam and Eve.
The same is true of lactase persistence in humans, northern Europeans and east Africans both evolved lactase persistence independently and the genetic basis is different in each case.
If you weren't all expecting to find mutations to explain everything, I wonder if you would find them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by caffeine, posted 06-05-2016 10:10 AM caffeine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by JonF, posted 06-05-2016 1:21 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 50 by caffeine, posted 06-05-2016 1:33 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 51 by Tangle, posted 06-05-2016 1:39 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 55 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-05-2016 9:31 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
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Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 48 of 76 (785458)
06-05-2016 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Faith
06-05-2016 5:11 AM


Re: Very weird indeed
Faith writes:
I haven't said it can't happen. But exploring the consequences of different scenarios makes it highly improbable this was a mutation.
The scientists that worked on this problem took 15 years over it. You, with your expert knowledge of experimental molecular genetics think that you've explored the consequencies of different scenarios? You haven't even read the paper have you, let alone 'explored the different scenarios'? Your hubris is extraordinary.
Unless it was a very old mutation that kept popping up from time to time anyway, most of the time to be eaten by birds, many years before being selected. In which case it might as well be a built-in allele anyway.
If you read just the citation it tells you exactly what the mutation was
quote:
insertion of a large, tandemly repeated, transposable element into the first intron of the gene cortex.
I don't trust this kind of science
Well we'll just have to add another group of important sciences that Faith disaproves of because they produce inconvenient results. I think we're pretty close to the whole set now.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
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JonF
Member (Idle past 247 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 49 of 76 (785463)
06-05-2016 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Faith
06-05-2016 1:01 PM


Re: Yes it's totally weird
If you weren't all expecting to find mutations to explain everything, I wonder if you would find them
Yes we would, they are unmistakably present.
If you weren't dedicated to blindness you'd find them too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 06-05-2016 1:01 PM Faith has not replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1103 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


(1)
Message 50 of 76 (785465)
06-05-2016 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Faith
06-05-2016 1:01 PM


Re: Yes it's totally weird
Well the study pinned it down to a specific change in a specific gene at a specific time -- the year 1819 -- and a gene not normally associated with color.
Yes, but it didn't have to be that mutation. If another mutation causing dark pigmentation had arisen in northern England, we'd be talking about that one instead.
Then how is this "mutation" if it "comes along at the right time?" Is mutation a random accident of replication or is it an inevitable requirement of genetics? Which is it????
The point is that there are many different random accidents that can have the same effect. They don't come along only at just the right time. Some of them crop up at the wrong time, but then since it is the wrong time they are selected out of the population.
If you weren't all expecting to find mutations to explain everything, I wonder if you would find them.
If Adam and Eve were diploid, like all mammals, then they had no more than four alleles at any locus - two for Adam, two for Eve. And yet we know that there are hundreds of different alleles for some loci in modern humans. Mutation is a requirement of Biblical literalism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 06-05-2016 1:01 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 06-05-2016 1:56 PM caffeine has replied

  
Tangle
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Posts: 9530
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 51 of 76 (785466)
06-05-2016 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Faith
06-05-2016 1:01 PM


Re: Yes it's totally weird
Faith writes:
If you weren't all expecting to find mutations to explain everything, I wonder if you would find them.
The strongest test of a theory is that it makes predictions that can be tested. The ToE predicts mutations as a mechanism for change in organisms. It's been a remarkable difficult thing to test experimentally but the fact that it has, is confirmation of the theory.
Second, as it has been demonstrated that mutations exist, your wonderings are irrelevant.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 06-05-2016 1:01 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
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Posts: 34051
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 52 of 76 (785467)
06-05-2016 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by caffeine
06-05-2016 1:33 PM


Re: Yes it's totally weird
If Adam and Eve were diploid, like all mammals, then they had no more than four alleles at any locus - two for Adam, two for Eve. And yet we know that there are hundreds of different alleles for some loci in modern humans. Mutation is a requirement of Biblical literalism.
Actually, since Eve was cloned, Eve's alleles were Adam's.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by caffeine, posted 06-05-2016 1:33 PM caffeine has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by caffeine, posted 06-05-2016 3:21 PM jar has replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1103 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 53 of 76 (785471)
06-05-2016 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by jar
06-05-2016 1:56 PM


Re: Yes it's totally weird
Actually, since Eve was cloned, Eve's alleles were Adam's.
She can't have been an exact clone, on account of being female. We need to allow some God-magic in the crafting of Eve's genome.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 06-05-2016 1:56 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by jar, posted 06-05-2016 5:42 PM caffeine has not replied
 Message 56 by RAZD, posted 06-06-2016 9:49 AM caffeine has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34051
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 54 of 76 (785477)
06-05-2016 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by caffeine
06-05-2016 3:21 PM


Re: Yes it's totally weird
The good doctor covered that long ago.
Asimov writes:
O give me a clone of my own flesh and bone,
With its Y chromosome changed to X.
And when it is grown, then my own little clone
Will be of the opposite sex.
Clone, clone of my own,
With its Y chromosome changed to X
And when I'm alone with my own little clone
We'll both think of nothing but sex.
O give me a clone, hear my sorrowful moan,
Just a clone that is wholly my own.
And if it's an X of the feminine sex,
Oh what fun we will have when we're prone.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by caffeine, posted 06-05-2016 3:21 PM caffeine has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 363 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 55 of 76 (785480)
06-05-2016 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Faith
06-05-2016 1:01 PM


Re: Yes it's totally weird
Then how is this "mutation" if it "comes along at the right time?" Is mutation a random accident of replication or is it an inevitable requirement of genetics? Which is it????
Obviously some random things are going to come along at the right time. If they all came along only at the wrong times, then we would have to start wondering if they were really random.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 06-05-2016 1:01 PM Faith has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1484 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 56 of 76 (785508)
06-06-2016 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by caffeine
06-05-2016 3:21 PM


actually
She can't have been an exact clone, on account of being female. We need to allow some God-magic in the crafting of Eve's genome.
But you can make XX from XY just by doubling the X. Harder to make an XY from XX.
What I want to know is if Adam was pregnant with Eve or did she grow like a yeast bud.

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This message is a reply to:
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Taq
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Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 57 of 76 (785544)
06-06-2016 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Faith
06-03-2016 7:43 PM


Re: not wierd at all.
Faith writes:
That's pure theory, not something known by observation.
It is known by observation as is being discussed in this thread. Another example is brown and black colored pocket mice:
Just a moment...
We have those exact observations.
If genetic material was built in from the Creation it included all the dominant and recessive forms of alleles and their combinations just as Mendel spelled them out.
Of the sequence differences between these alleles, which are you saying could not be produced by the observable mechanisms of mutation?
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Faith, posted 06-03-2016 7:43 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 58 of 76 (785545)
06-06-2016 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
06-03-2016 7:50 PM


Faith writes:
In Tangle's original post where he quoted the date for its appearance in the late 1800s at the height of the Industrial Revolution.
Where did you show that this was the ONLY time the mutation occurred?
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 06-03-2016 7:50 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 59 of 76 (785546)
06-06-2016 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by jar
06-03-2016 10:12 PM


The thing Faith needs to remember is that it really is a multipart system. Mutations causing dark moths may well have been happening all along but before the soot phase of the industrial revolution they were simply dinner. It was only when the selection pressure changed that the dark moths had an advantage.
It was selection that determined this particular mutation got preserved. Any earlier examples of a similar mutation would have just been putting food on the table.
The same thing happened in pocket mice. They also evolved black coloration, and it was a dominant allele. However, the gene is strongly selected against in the normal light beige desert. Only when volcanic eruptions produced black volcanic rock was there a niche for the black mice to be selected for. What we see are islands of black mice in and around old black lava flows, surrounded by a sea of light beige mice.
The interesting part is that the black allele is dominant. However, you can't find black mice at any appreciable distance away from the black lava fields, which act as islands for the black allele. They were even able to show that there is free interbreeding between the black mice and the brown mice, but the black allele still doesn't spread far from the black volcanic islands in the light brown desert.
Just a moment...
What is also interesting is that the black lava flows are relatively recent compared to the much older light beige desert.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by jar, posted 06-03-2016 10:12 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 06-06-2016 11:26 PM Taq has replied
 Message 64 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-08-2016 2:02 PM Taq has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1523 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 60 of 76 (785551)
06-06-2016 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Taq
06-06-2016 6:00 PM


I kept thinking of the pocket mice through this whole discussion too. Same situation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Taq, posted 06-06-2016 6:00 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Taq, posted 06-08-2016 12:13 PM Faith has replied

  
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