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Author Topic:   Brexit - Should they stay or should they go?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7011
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 3 of 718 (785468)
06-05-2016 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by caffeine
06-05-2016 1:17 PM


I was hoping this wouldn't come up... Ah well.

There's an enormous amount of smoke in the air but there really are only 3 important issues for the vote

1. Immigration. We have open boarders for other EU countries which means that millions of people from the poorer, ex-communist eastern European states are now in the UK. There are concerns about jobs, wages, housing, healthcare and benefits. Underneath that, there's a fear that Britain is no longer British.

2. Control. We are subject to a lot of laws that do not originate in the UK, some of which are seen to be bad for us - fishery policy, boarder control, the shape of bananas and human rights. (There is confusion between the various treaties but let's not go there - perceptions are more important than facts at this stage.)

3. The economy. Pretty much every economist and institution of any standing agrees that leaving is bad - at least in the relative short term and probably in the long term too. But those that want to leave aren't listening to economic arguments.

The final decison is going to be made almost entirely on gut feeling. I'm really, really pissed off at our Prime Minister for allowing this vote, he nearly lost Scotland, now he's risking Europe. It's idiotic.

I'm for staying.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by caffeine, posted 06-05-2016 1:17 PM caffeine has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Diomedes, posted 06-05-2016 4:02 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7011
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 6 of 718 (785478)
06-05-2016 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Diomedes
06-05-2016 4:02 PM


Diomedes writes:

I have to admit, that is something that baffles me. The majority of the individuals who are pro-Brexit are from the conservative party. Why would Cameron (who is the conservative party leader) instantiate this vote? Did he grossly under-estimate the fact that the Brexit lobby and voter sentiment made this vote far closer than he thought? I don't really get the rational.

The major reason was that the Conservative party has been split on Europe since we went in and it's been a running sore ever since. I think he wanted it settled.

There were also backroom deals done before the last election. Because of the immigration issue a minor exit party called UKIP looked like it would split the vote and create at best a hung Parliament. Cameron thought that by promising a referrendum he'd steal their thunder. As it turned out UKIP did poorly and the real opposition - Labour - got annihilated alongside the Liberals so the Conservatives got a majority. But he was stuck with the promise.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Diomedes, posted 06-05-2016 4:02 PM Diomedes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Pressie, posted 06-06-2016 5:57 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7011
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 9 of 718 (785494)
06-06-2016 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Pressie
06-06-2016 6:15 AM


Pressie writes:

To me, personally, as non-British; the Brits can do whatever you want to. Those guys are really not that important anymore. Their time is gone.

I really wish that was true, unfortunately it's not. Sure we no longer have an empire and control a fifth of the world's population but we're still have enormous political, cultural and economic influence. We're the fifth largest economy, a (nuclear) member of NATO and we get tangled up with the USA's insane wars through our so called 'special relationship'.

If we were smaller, less impressed by the bullies of the world and less concerned with our inglorious past we might be a lot healthier and happier as a nation. But maybe Brexit will help.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Pressie, posted 06-06-2016 6:15 AM Pressie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Pressie, posted 06-07-2016 7:19 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7011
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 20 of 718 (785540)
06-06-2016 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by caffeine
06-06-2016 2:39 PM


caffeiene writes:

And this is the most frustrating of all. So much of the debate is totally disconnected from any real problems with the EU (which, of course, there are). It's about made up nonsense like straight bananas.

If we leave, it's going to be interesting to see who gets blamed for all the inevitable 'straight bananas' and food labelling requirements that cost 'thousands.' It's useful to have scapegoats.

What's not being factored into this is how much the UK - what's left of it when Scotland demands to leave the UK over it - gets hammered by the EU in order to deter others from also leaving. It's not going to be easy to negotiate our terms - only a fool would think otherwise.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by caffeine, posted 06-06-2016 2:39 PM caffeine has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Diomedes, posted 06-06-2016 4:22 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7011
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 22 of 718 (785547)
06-06-2016 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Diomedes
06-06-2016 4:22 PM


Diomedes writes:

if Brexit occurs, will that not embolden the nationalistic elements of Scotland to start work on another referendum?

Yes, and it's highly likely, almost inevitable that that will happen.

There's even a possibility that Wales would wake up and go the same way. Cameron would then go down in history as the guy that not only left the EU but also broke the Union.

Maybe, in the end, all that would not be totally devastating but for a couple of generations it will be a disaster.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Diomedes, posted 06-06-2016 4:22 PM Diomedes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by caffeine, posted 06-07-2016 12:12 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 28 by Pressie, posted 06-08-2016 8:56 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7011
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 33 of 718 (786097)
06-16-2016 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by caffeine
06-16-2016 12:32 PM


Re: The Latest Polls
caffeine writes:

I am somewhat frustrated that the Remain campaign is not making more of Tuesday's ruling at the European Court of Justice. Brussels had challenged Britain's policy to limit benefits to certain foreign citizens who didn't work, but on Tuesday the ECJ ruled the UK governments measures were consistent with EU law. Wouldn't this be a perfect case study against the idea of Brussels dictating rules to Britain?

For some reason they're determined to not discuss immigration and to concentrate almost entirely on the economic. It's dumb. The thick only care about immigration and don't understand economics.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by caffeine, posted 06-16-2016 12:32 PM caffeine has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7011
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 58 of 718 (786358)
06-20-2016 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by New Cat's Eye
06-20-2016 4:50 PM


Re: Important Question
Cat Sci writes:

What is the Queen saying?

"Which fucking oik was idiot enough to ask the fucking proles what to do with my fucking country?"

Or something like that.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2016 4:50 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2016 5:17 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7011
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 61 of 718 (786362)
06-20-2016 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by New Cat's Eye
06-20-2016 5:17 PM


Re: Important Question
Cat Sci writes:

Has she offered any opinion on whether they should stay or go?

Constitutionally, she can not say. So she doesn't.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2016 5:17 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2016 6:24 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7011
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 63 of 718 (786373)
06-21-2016 3:27 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by New Cat's Eye
06-20-2016 6:24 PM


Re: Important Question
Cat Sci writes:

Wait, the Queen does't have the freedom of speech!?

On matters of politics, no.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2016 6:24 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7011
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 66 of 718 (786391)
06-21-2016 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Big_Al35
06-21-2016 9:59 AM


Re: Important Question
BigA writes:

I love these throw away lines. Yes if she wants to express an opinion she should give up her entire way of life and everything she has ever known. Meanwhile back in reality ...

That IS the reality. No ifs, no buts.

She can express her political opinions once she is no longer the monarch, otherwise she keeps schtum.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Big_Al35, posted 06-21-2016 9:59 AM Big_Al35 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Diomedes, posted 06-21-2016 12:05 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7011
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 71 of 718 (786460)
06-22-2016 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by LamarkNewAge
06-21-2016 8:51 PM


Re: Remember the main issue driving "Leave" or Brexit.
Lamark writes:

I think this is the fundamental issue.

Not really. The fundamental issue for those that are voting to leave is that they feel that the UK is a small overpopulated island that can't accept immigration at the rate it's happening. It's schools, hospitals, housing, roads and infrastructure can't support it. Inside that is a dislike of how the UK is no longer, they say, British.

They're quite happy to play off unverifyable, esoteric and indirect long-term economic benefits against those more obvious and direct disbenefits that they actually see and feel right now.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by LamarkNewAge, posted 06-21-2016 8:51 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Theodoric, posted 06-22-2016 10:44 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 76 by LamarkNewAge, posted 06-22-2016 4:03 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7011
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 73 of 718 (786476)
06-22-2016 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Theodoric
06-22-2016 10:44 AM


Re: Remember the main issue driving "Leave" or Brexit.
Theo writes:

So you support leaving the EU?

No, I was just explaining the exit argument.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Theodoric, posted 06-22-2016 10:44 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7011
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 74 of 718 (786477)
06-22-2016 11:32 AM


Predictions
The vote can't be called, there's no history to rely on - but the result looks likely to be close.

Tomorrow we vote for something that can't be undone in a generation if ever. It's a big, big thing that will directly affect the lives of my children and theirs.

Time for predictions. What will happen on Friday morning if we vote out?

I predict a sterling and stock market crash.

There'll also be chaos in parliament. Sooner or later - sooner - the PM will be chucked out and the right wingers will have their way until another general election.

It frightens me what will happen after that, I can only hope that the undecideds are just as frightened and vote for the status quo.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by caffeine, posted 06-22-2016 1:07 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 77 by LamarkNewAge, posted 06-22-2016 4:16 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 81 by Heathen, posted 06-23-2016 6:16 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7011
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 82 of 718 (786548)
06-23-2016 7:14 AM


I've voted. I'm frightened.

This decision is too important for democracy.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7011
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 90 of 718 (786597)
06-23-2016 6:24 PM


Voting closed a while ago. No results for a while yet, but all the talk is about a remain decision - but in truth, no-one knows.

All that's known is that the turn-out is very high.

Still shit-scared.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Diomedes, posted 06-23-2016 11:14 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
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