Brexit - Should they stay or should they go?

And to think this whole mess is because there are just too many brown-skinned people looking for a decent/safe life free of oppression both political and economic.Poor Europe has to suffer being the beacon of freedom and opportunity to the Arabs just like the USA is to the Latinos of Central/South America.Welcome to the world we made in our image.

But this problem with that is who gets to decide when a solution has been reached. That's what stumped everything. You could have got a majority in Parliament for a backstop which the UK was allowed to end unilaterally; but the UK won't agree to that because it allows Britain to stop it without coming up with a solution acceptable to the rest of Europe.Maybe, when drafting the Lisbon treaty, someone should have put some thought into how a country leaves the EU; rather than just clarifying a legal process allowing it to happen.

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But this problem with that is who gets to decide when a solution has been reached

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Each side gets to say if it is acceptable to them. You can object that one of them might be acting in bad faith, but it’s hard to find anything better.Right now the ERG are only willing to accept their idea that technology and trusted trader schemes. And it is really questionable whether it will. Or how long it would take to get it working if it could work. The backstop gives them the chance to make a better case - hopefully including some trials of some sort. Just assuming that it is going to work, on the other hand leaves everyone with a problem. But that is all the ERG will accept.The EU would be happy with a full Customs Union. They would probably accept limiting the backstop to Northern Ireland, with a border with the Irish Sea. But they aren’t going to accept a closed border in Ireland.

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Maybe, when drafting the Lisbon treaty, someone should have put some thought into how a country leaves the EU; rather than just clarifying a legal process allowing it to happen.

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This is a separate point but the Irish border is a very special case - and May did commit to keeping it open. If Greece had pulled out I can’t imagine a similar problem.

I'm also curious about Gibraltar. I know that's come up a few times in discussions, but seems to have been drowned out by the Irish border talks. Not sure if that has been resolved either.One of the main problems that the UK is facing with Brexit is one of the core tenets of Leave was securing the border. If fact, it was probably the most important talking point from their side. So allowing any level of fluidity to any border in essence is violating the notions of Brexit.As I mentioned before, I am honestly flabbergasted that this situation wasn't adequately planned for with regards to the UK government once Article 50 was triggered. These aren't stupid people. But the sense I get is that their solution is 'we will figure it out'. Well, its been two and a half years and nobody seems to have a tenable solution. That appears to be what makes the backstop so unpopular. Nobody knows how they will fix the issue with the Irish border. They just assume it will be done 'at some point'. Not exactly a resounding vote of confidence.

Gibraltar doesn’t have a long fiddly land border with the EU, nor a history of violent unrest with a substantial minority wanting reunification with Spain.In short it’s much easier for the EU not to make waves about Gibraltar. I can’t say that will stay the case if May reopens negotiations and annoys the negotiators enough. At the least the Spanish might see it as an opportunity.As I have mentioned earlier I saw this coming over a year ago. There is no obvious fix. The BBC has a story. At best a fix would take years to implement, if it worked.May got the best deal the EU was prepared to offer, and it wasn’t good enough for the ERG.

Is there any thought to maybe the EU, unhappy as they may be, might find it advantageous to work with Her Majesty’s government to smooth over an official Brexit, knowing full well Britain actually isn’t going anywhere economically and in a few election cycles they’ll be back officially as well?

Thanks for the link. The story seems to allude to the same kinds of technological border solutions we've all brought up on this thread already. So as before, I am somewhat surprised the UK government hasn't taken more steps to already begin work on such a solution. It would go a long way towards alleviating concerns about the backstop if they had some sort of strategy on how they would handle a 'soft border', using technology along with estimates as to how long it would take to implement. That would certainly be more favorable to the kicking the can down the road and 'we'll figure it out' approach they have taken up to this point.Regarding Gibraltar, well, one problem at a time I guess.

Gibraltar is a much simpler issue. The idea of Gibraltar having a different status to the UK is a totally different one to N. Ireland having a different status to Britain, since Gibraltar already has a different status. It's not part of the UK, it's not in the EU customs union, and the border with Spain is not open; so these vexing questions do not arise.Despite a few belligerent voices in Spain, the Spanish government has rather sensibly agreed that they will treat negotiations on the status of Gibraltar as separate from the UK withdrawal agreement; so it's not holding anything up like the Irish border question is.

I think there is little chance of Britain rejoining the EU in the forseeable future. After all the rigmarole involved in leaving, at least a generation or two needs to pass. Who knows if the EU will even still be here by then?Edited by caffeine, : Contradictory and redundant sentence

Why should anyone think The EU, or whatever its evolved form may call itself, won't continue to thrive within such a strong economic zone?But, I was thinking more short term.Just for jollies, let's say the Brits hold another referendum and Remain-Like-Nothing-Happened-We-Don't-Wanna-Go-We're-Sorry wins the day.Discount the gloom and doom revolt and rebel crowd, which can cause damage but can be overcome.What's Europe going to do ... say, "No"?

The EU doesn't say anything, the UK just asks for their letter back and it's like nothing happened.

Good. Then why don't you all go do that ...I know, I know ... racism and the fears that go with it. Specifically economic fears. The drain on resources, pressure on jobs and job values. Yeah, ok, cultural differences that outside the extremes are, well, just different.I know. We have the same thing here ... on steroids.Makes things difficult to get to where some of us would like to see society evolve.

I reckon if they asked us again we might.

Now seeing that might be worth the controversy.