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Author Topic:   Brexit - Should they stay or should they go?
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4720
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


(2)
Message 511 of 794 (849704)
03-18-2019 4:29 PM


This has gone wrong too many times and, as has been observed in this thread, "clusterfuck" and "bugger's muddle" are rather mild insults for what has taken place.

The Crown does have a purpose other than cutting ribbons for new stores and roads. Like her predecessors during the wars, the greatest service Her Majesty could render is to get out front on this thing helping to find solutions that would soothe a bewildered, confused, and pissed-off public.

In that regard I would advise Her Majesty to take the following actions:

1. Dismiss Theresa Mary May as PM.

2. Dissolve Parliament.

3. Call for new elections to be held in 60-90 days.

4. Add a referendum to the election that reads:

Shall the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland LEAVE the European Union or shall the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland STAY within the European Union?

The two choices on the punch cards, pull levers, check boxes, whatever, should be labeled "LEAVE" and "STAY".

5. Behead somebody ... anybody ...

6. Order the return of nipples to page 3.

The political institutions in the society are FUBAR* and the Crown has an opportunity to perform the greatest service of her reign to her people.

*Fucked up beyond all recognition


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

Replies to this message:
 Message 512 by ringo, posted 03-18-2019 4:44 PM AZPaul3 has responded
 Message 515 by Diomedes, posted 03-18-2019 5:33 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17510
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 512 of 794 (849705)
03-18-2019 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 511 by AZPaul3
03-18-2019 4:29 PM


Add a referendum....

Referendums are almost always a bad idea. It was an ill-advised referendum that made the mess in the first place.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 511 by AZPaul3, posted 03-18-2019 4:29 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 513 by AZPaul3, posted 03-18-2019 4:49 PM ringo has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4720
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 513 of 794 (849706)
03-18-2019 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 512 by ringo
03-18-2019 4:44 PM


It was an ill-advised referendum that made the mess in the first place.

So true. But since Parliament appears unwilling, unable, to fix it this may be the only way to resolution.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 512 by ringo, posted 03-18-2019 4:44 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 514 by ringo, posted 03-18-2019 4:53 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17510
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 514 of 794 (849707)
03-18-2019 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 513 by AZPaul3
03-18-2019 4:49 PM


I'd laugh if "Leave" got an even bigger majority.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 513 by AZPaul3, posted 03-18-2019 4:49 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 516 by AZPaul3, posted 03-18-2019 5:47 PM ringo has responded

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 918
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 515 of 794 (849709)
03-18-2019 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 511 by AZPaul3
03-18-2019 4:29 PM


The removal of nipples from page 3 was grounds for a beheading in an of itself in my opinion.

That notwithstanding, the British government is having an identity crisis which is part of the problem. They have been grumbling about leaving the EU for decades now and even some of the Labour party members who are touting their Remain credentials quietly (or sometimes vocally) have supported the idea of leaving the EU. Jeremy Corbin is guilty of this.

Incidentally, something just dawned on me: Bercow may have just unwittingly ensured a No Deal outcome. Prior to his decision, May's Deal and No Deal were the only remaining options. Now they are going to make a request for an extension of Article 50, but there is no guarantee that the extension will be granted. As much as there is Brexit fatigue in the UK, it also exists on the EU side as well. Many are likely fed up with the whole mess in the Eurozone and all it takes is one detractor and the extension is denied.

The EU parliament has been listening to that blowhard Nigel Farage for some time now and they might just decide they would rather kick his arse out. And if the extension to Article 50 is rejected, with Bercow's decision on no additional votes for May's Deal, than the default option is No Deal.

Not sure if the Speaker could potentially overrule himself to allow May's Deal to be brought back to a vote. He did say he would consider it if it contained 'meaningful changes'. I guess an option would be to just adjust the font of the draft deal and present it again. Not exactly in the spirit of meaningful changes. But for politics, that may be sufficient.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 511 by AZPaul3, posted 03-18-2019 4:29 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 517 by AZPaul3, posted 03-18-2019 6:06 PM Diomedes has not yet responded
 Message 520 by Diomedes, posted 03-20-2019 1:05 PM Diomedes has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4720
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 516 of 794 (849710)
03-18-2019 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 514 by ringo
03-18-2019 4:53 PM


If it did then after the experiences of the last year or so at least they will know what they're in for. I don't think the majority of those who voted last time understood the full implications. It was a lark. An emotional protest vote that seemed exhilarating yet harmless. Like more than few thrump voters.

Cept' now a lot of those voters along with the rest of the whole world know it's not going to be so harmless. A lot of damage has already been done and not just to the combined economies of both sides, but to the unleashing of an emboldened radical right. Repercussions are still to be felt.

Come on Queenie. You know it can be done. Even if it costs you your family's throne in the long run. There is no greater love ...

That may take awhile though. You would be a national hero more idolized than you have ever known. You would be an international super hero. But, Charles? It may end there.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 514 by ringo, posted 03-18-2019 4:53 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 518 by ringo, posted 03-18-2019 6:11 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4720
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 517 of 794 (849712)
03-18-2019 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 515 by Diomedes
03-18-2019 5:33 PM


Many are likely fed up with the whole mess in the Eurozone and all it takes is one detractor and the extension is denied.

Since all nations in the EU must agree you are right, it would take just one.

But I'm thinking this is welcome to the EU. Just the political break the world needs while the Brit's get their shit back together. Hell ... Tell'm to take the next 5 years. If they haven't figured it out by then, well, nuke the fuckin island.

Not exactly in the spirit of meaningful changes. But for politics, that may be sufficient.

Now that's funny. Gotta admit this whole thing is an amazing spectacle to watch.

Go Queen! Go Queen! Go Queen!


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 17510
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 518 of 794 (849713)
03-18-2019 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 516 by AZPaul3
03-18-2019 5:47 PM


I don't think the majority of those who voted last time understood the full implications.

I think many of those who voted for exit have been mischaracterized as xenophobes. I, for one, would have voted for exit because I've always thought the EU was a bad idea. I think the economic implications have been vastly exaggerated - i.e. they can not be predicted.

Like more than few thrump voters.

It looks to me like Trump's support is as strong as ever. I predict he'll win a second term (unless he can figure out a way to weasel out of running).

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 516 by AZPaul3, posted 03-18-2019 5:47 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 519 by AZPaul3, posted 03-18-2019 7:05 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4720
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 519 of 794 (849714)
03-18-2019 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 518 by ringo
03-18-2019 6:11 PM


(unless he can figure out a way to weasel out of running).

Oh please! Yes! Please, please, please, please, pleASE!

Prosecutors everywhere are going to have a lot of fun with this guy!


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 518 by ringo, posted 03-18-2019 6:11 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 918
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 520 of 794 (849760)
03-20-2019 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 515 by Diomedes
03-18-2019 5:33 PM


EU will only agree to delay if current deal approved
quote:
The EU will only agree to delay Brexit if the UK Parliament approves the current withdrawal agreement next week, Theresa May has been told.

EU Council President Donald Tusk said a short extension, requested by the prime minister on Wednesday, was possible.

Mrs May has written to Mr Tusk requesting a Brexit delay to 30 June, saying she needed more time to get her withdrawal deal passed by MPs.

The UK is due to leave the EU next Friday, on 29 March.

Mr Tusk said he believed all 27 other EU members, who must sign off on the extension, would agree but it depended on a "positive" vote in the House of Commons.


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47636011

Wow. I was not expecting that. If that EU position holds, that pretty much leaves only May's Deal or No Deal as the only remaining options. The EU may have just handed May a win.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 515 by Diomedes, posted 03-18-2019 5:33 PM Diomedes has not yet responded

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PaulK
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Posts: 15536
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 521 of 794 (849761)
03-20-2019 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 520 by Diomedes
03-20-2019 1:05 PM


Re: EU will only agree to delay if current deal approved
It’s actually quite a clever response as May was only going to use the extension to try to get her deal through anyway. That stops her doing that without refusing an extension.

If May had got what she wanted then the same situation would still have arisen only a few months later. But with a load of complications because of the European Parliamentary elections.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 520 by Diomedes, posted 03-20-2019 1:05 PM Diomedes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 523 by Diomedes, posted 03-20-2019 2:34 PM PaulK has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17510
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 522 of 794 (849763)
03-20-2019 1:30 PM


Is James Clavell still alive? He should write a book about this.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 918
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 523 of 794 (849765)
03-20-2019 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 521 by PaulK
03-20-2019 1:13 PM


Re: EU will only agree to delay if current deal approved
PaulK writes:

It’s actually quite a clever response as May was only going to use the extension to try to get her deal through anyway. That stops her doing that without refusing an extension.
If May had got what she wanted then the same situation would still have arisen only a few months later. But with a load of complications because of the European Parliamentary elections.

I was honestly thinking that the EU would reject a short extension in favor of pushing for a longer extension since that would open up other possibilities, including a general election or another referendum. Donald Tusk a few days back seemed to be pushing for this. My guess is the other EU representatives likely said they are sick of Brexit and want the problem to go away. So with that, they pretty much just made the decision for the UK. A 'No Deal' I guess is still possible, but my suspicion is that most who voted against May's Deal will likely now be terrified at the prospect of exiting without a deal. So they will switch their votes.

Of course, Bercow now has to allow another meaningful vote on May's Deal. Even though he stipulated he won't do that unless it contains some meaningful differences.

The EU may opt to add some other 'assurances' to the existing deal. I believe Tusk is working on that. So that may be enough to warrant a third vote.

ringo writes:

Is James Clavell still alive? He should write a book about this.

Hey, this might work as a good book cover:


This message is a reply to:
 Message 521 by PaulK, posted 03-20-2019 1:13 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 524 by PaulK, posted 03-20-2019 3:01 PM Diomedes has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15536
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 524 of 794 (849766)
03-20-2019 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 523 by Diomedes
03-20-2019 2:34 PM


Re: EU will only agree to delay if current deal approved
I disagree that Bercow has to allow another vote on May’s deal unless she makes changes or Parliament votes to do it. Tusk’s comments don’t change anything there. It’s been voted on twice, heavily defeated both times and it’s not looking very hopeful even now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 523 by Diomedes, posted 03-20-2019 2:34 PM Diomedes has responded

Replies to this message:
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Diomedes
Member
Posts: 918
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 525 of 794 (849767)
03-20-2019 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 524 by PaulK
03-20-2019 3:01 PM


Re: EU will only agree to delay if current deal approved
I disagree that Bercow has to allow another vote on May’s deal unless she makes changes or Parliament votes to do it. Tusk’s comments don’t change anything there. It’s been voted on twice, heavily defeated both times and it’s not looking very hopeful even now.

Indeed. It will be quite the quagmire to sort this out from a procedure perspective. But I would be shocked if No Deal became the outcome merely due to Bercow's stance on allowing another vote on the existing deal. I still suspect that he will end up allowing another meaningful vote despite his previous stance. But as you stated, there is still no guarantee that May's Deal will pass. The strident Brexiteers will likely continue to vote against it and considering how stubborn some politicians can be, there is always the possibility others may do the same. At which point, a No Deal shitstorm ensues. We shall see.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 524 by PaulK, posted 03-20-2019 3:01 PM PaulK has not yet responded

  
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