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Author Topic:   Brexit - Should they stay or should they go?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 751 of 771 (862440)
09-05-2019 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 749 by Percy
09-05-2019 9:16 AM


Re: Why would the EU grant an extension?
Percy writes:

I've probably said this before, but why can't Britain reverse Brexit?

It can. It would need another vote. And the vote would have to come out 'stay'.

Why is the result of this populist resolution considered cast in stone?

It isn't, but it would need another vote.

Every few years, as in all countries, Britain reverses itself and puts the opposite party in charge. Why can't Britain reverse itself on Brexit?

Why doesn't the USA change the 2nd amendment?

I hear that the political temperature on Brexit is a close thing, that there is no guarantee that voting on it again wouldn't again be a close affair, but that makes no sense.

Sense? It's the great unwashed we're talking about here.

The British people couldn't possibly be so dense.

You're kidding?

Brexit passed because its negative aspects were not understood at the time. Now they are. How could Brexit ever pass again?

Because people en masse are fucking stupid. You know that. Educated, rational, thoughtful people are a minority, that's why it's a really fucking stupid idea to ask the masses a complicated question.

I'm sure i've again revealed my woeful ignorance of British politics, but that's the way I feel.

No, you've just revealed your ignorance of the majority of people. Just like our politicians did. Well one of them, Cameron.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 749 by Percy, posted 09-05-2019 9:16 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 752 by Percy, posted 09-05-2019 12:19 PM Tangle has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18842
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 752 of 771 (862458)
09-05-2019 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 751 by Tangle
09-05-2019 9:39 AM


Re: Why would the EU grant an extension?
Tangle writes:

Why is the result of this populist resolution considered cast in stone?

It isn't, but it would need another vote.

Oh, sure, I understand that.

Every few years, as in all countries, Britain reverses itself and puts the opposite party in charge. Why can't Britain reverse itself on Brexit?

Why doesn't the USA change the 2nd amendment?

I didn't mean to ask why doesn't Britain reverse itself on Brexit, but why *can't* it. The reason for that phrasing is because the way I often hear it described over here is that there can't be another vote on Brexit because it would be undemocratic. The British people have already democratically expressed their will, and to ask them the same question again just because implementation poses difficult issues is undemocratic.

The flip side of it, of course, is that Britain was sold a bill of goods on Brexit. It has few of the benefits promised, and it includes many costs that were left unmentioned.

I'm sure i've again revealed my woeful ignorance of British politics, but that's the way I feel.

No, you've just revealed your ignorance of the majority of people. Just like our politicians did. Well one of them, Cameron.

But I think there's a basic economic psychology issue being ignored. People in general respond more viscerally to fears than to benefits. When on an objective level the costs and benefits balance out, people will always respond more strongly to the costs. In other words, fear mongering works.

Brexit has to be fought with equivalent fear mongering. For example, one doesn't argue that Britain's position in the EU makes it the financial center, and so Britain should stay. One instead argues that a good portion of Britain's financial power would move to the continent, and so Britain shouldn't leave.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 751 by Tangle, posted 09-05-2019 9:39 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 753 by Tangle, posted 09-05-2019 1:03 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 754 by DrJones*, posted 09-05-2019 1:37 PM Percy has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7068
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 753 of 771 (862468)
09-05-2019 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 752 by Percy
09-05-2019 12:19 PM


Re: Why would the EU grant an extension?
Percy writes:

The reason for that phrasing is because the way I often hear it described over here is that there can't be another vote on Brexit because it would be undemocratic.

That's just propaganda. There could be another vote and it would be democratic. The argument is that we had no idea what Brexit was when we voted, now we are beginning to understand that there are different forms of it - some, seemingly suicidal. We need another vote to be sure what is actually wanted.

In other words, fear mongering works.

Brexit has to be fought with equivalent fear mongering. For example, one doesn't argue that Britain's position in the EU makes it the financial center, and so Britain should stay. One instead argues that a good portion of Britain's financial power would move to the continent, and so Britain shouldn't leave.

The remainers were accused of 'project fear' - pointing out all the problems of Brexit. It didn't work and it won't work. The majority of Brexiters are older, poorer and less educated - they don't care how bad it will be, they just want out. It's a simple and misguided rejection of current politics (and immigration). They were ignored by politics and politicians for too long. A similar sentiment got you Trump. They want it broken.

The sad thing is that it's just those people that will be harmed by Brexit.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 752 by Percy, posted 09-05-2019 12:19 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1933
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 754 of 771 (862481)
09-05-2019 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 752 by Percy
09-05-2019 12:19 PM


Re: Why would the EU grant an extension?
I didn't mean to ask why doesn't Britain reverse itself on Brexit, but why *can't* it.

they can reverse Brexit. The referendum was non-binding, the government has no legal obligation to go through with it. The EU court has said that the UK can stop the process anytime they want without needing the agreement of the other members. It is legally possible to for them to just say "oops changed our minds, we're staying". It's politics that are keeping this clusterfuck going.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 4512
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 755 of 771 (862489)
09-05-2019 1:55 PM


What I find interesting is that Boris could go to the Queen and say "Shut down Parliament," and she just does it. It's legal.

I wish we could do that with our Senate.

[abe]

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 902
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 756 of 771 (862552)
09-06-2019 1:05 PM


Jonathan Pie - The Purge

Can't have Brexit without Jonathan Pie.


  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18842
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 757 of 771 (862587)
09-07-2019 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 754 by DrJones*
09-05-2019 1:37 PM


Re: Why would the EU grant an extension?
DrJones* writes:

They can reverse Brexit. The referendum was non-binding, the government has no legal obligation to go through with it. The EU court has said that the UK can stop the process anytime they want without needing the agreement of the other members. It is legally possible to for them to just say "oops changed our minds, we're staying". It's politics that are keeping this clusterfuck going.

This is new information for me. I didn't know the referendum was non-binding. The downside risks and difficulties of Brexit are now so obvious and apparent that it seems a no-brainer to bring it to a halt. It is too bad that the politics makes this impossible.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 770 by Tusko, posted 09-11-2019 9:45 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6800
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 7.2


Message 758 of 771 (862588)
09-07-2019 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 757 by Percy
09-07-2019 9:53 AM


Re: Why would the EU grant an extension?
I remember that court case in the news.

Not only was the vote nonbinding, but it didn't even authorize the government to withdraw from the EU. Parliament had to actually vote on Brexit themselves before it could happen.


Hard as it is to fathom, Mr President, just because you’re the leader of the free world doesn’t entitle you to a free pass. Unfortunately, just a free press. -- Neil Cavuto

This message is a reply to:
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Diomedes
Member
Posts: 902
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 759 of 771 (862654)
09-09-2019 11:49 AM


Speaker John Bercow to step down
quote:
John Bercow says he will stand down as Commons Speaker and MP at the next election or on 31 October, whichever comes first.

Speaking in Parliament, Mr Bercow said his 10-year "tenure" was nearing its end and it had been the "greatest honour and privilege" to serve.

If there was no early election, he said 31 October would be the "least disruptive and most democratic" date.


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49639828

There were rumblings about the Conservative party attempting to vote him out, so it appears that he beat them to the punch. Or maybe he just decided to bail before the No Deal Brexit deadline.


  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1699
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 760 of 771 (862676)
09-10-2019 4:21 AM
Reply to: Message 747 by caffeine
09-05-2019 3:55 AM


Boris' cunning plan to get around the law requiring him to request an extension was, apparently, to send two letters to Brussels. The first, as mandated by law, would request the Council for an extension to the leave date. The second would request the Council to ignore the first.

Exact content of the second letter is not clear. "Only joking!"; "I had my fingers crossed so it didn't count"; or simply "Noooot!" are all possibilities. Legal experts have weighed in that all would leave Johnson guilty of contempt, however.


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caffeine
Member
Posts: 1699
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 761 of 771 (862677)
09-10-2019 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 738 by caffeine
09-04-2019 9:50 AM


Re: Brexit fact of the day
Johnson's government has managed to suffer more Commons defeats in one week than either Thatcher or Blair did in premierships that lasted more than a decade.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 738 by caffeine, posted 09-04-2019 9:50 AM caffeine has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 762 by Diomedes, posted 09-10-2019 9:44 AM caffeine has responded

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 902
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 762 of 771 (862680)
09-10-2019 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 761 by caffeine
09-10-2019 6:55 AM


Re: Brexit fact of the day
Johnson's government has managed to suffer more Commons defeats in one week than either Thatcher or Blair did in premierships that lasted more than a decade.

I wonder if there is an award for that.

I am curious what the next steps are going to be. Parliament is now in recess and Johnson is supposed to be going to the EU to broker a new deal. I doubt that will get much traction. His plan to use No Deal as a bargaining chip seems to now be gone. And he has emphatically stated he will not ask the EU for an extension despite technically now being mandated by law to do so if he has no new deal.

I am still wondering if the EU might just decide to end this charade and not grant another extension. Macron has hinted at this, although he may be grandstanding. But from where I sit, it seems the EU is holding all the cards right now. So I wouldn't be surprised if they simply denied the extension and told the UK that they either need to accept the deal already in place or revoke Article 50. Put all the onus on them.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 761 by caffeine, posted 09-10-2019 6:55 AM caffeine has responded

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caffeine
Member
Posts: 1699
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 763 of 771 (862699)
09-10-2019 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 762 by Diomedes
09-10-2019 9:44 AM


Re: Brexit fact of the day
I wonder if there is an award for that.

I am curious what the next steps are going to be. Parliament is now in recess and Johnson is supposed to be going to the EU to broker a new deal. I doubt that will get much traction. His plan to use No Deal as a bargaining chip seems to now be gone. And he has emphatically stated he will not ask the EU for an extension despite technically now being mandated by law to do so if he has no new deal.

I am still wondering if the EU might just decide to end this charade and not grant another extension. Macron has hinted at this, although he may be grandstanding. But from where I sit, it seems the EU is holding all the cards right now. So I wouldn't be surprised if they simply denied the extension and told the UK that they either need to accept the deal already in place or revoke Article 50. Put all the onus on them.

It's not as if the possibility of leaving without a deal is gone. All the current legislation does is require the PM to request an extension if Parliament does not approve a deal; or exiting without a deal; by mid-October. If the European Council refuses an extension then exiting without a deal on 31st remains the default outcome.

ABE - and I intentionally wrote 'European Council' rather than EU above for a reason. People often talk about 'the EU' as if such a thing exists as a decision-making entity, but it doesn't. When we're saying what 'the EU' will do, it's important to remember what actual institution (and by extension, which actual people) we mean in a given situation.

In this case, it means the European Council; and importantly any decision to change anything already agreed upon with the UK (including the departure date) would require unanimity in the Council. So, for the EU to refuse an extension it only actually requires one of the 27 national governments to do so.

Edited by caffeine, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 762 by Diomedes, posted 09-10-2019 9:44 AM Diomedes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 20120
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 764 of 771 (862712)
09-11-2019 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 763 by caffeine
09-10-2019 2:48 PM


Re: Brexit fact of the day
ABE - and I intentionally wrote 'European Council' rather than EU above for a reason. People often talk about 'the EU' as if such a thing exists as a decision-making entity, but it doesn't. When we're saying what 'the EU' will do, it's important to remember what actual institution (and by extension, which actual people) we mean in a given situation.

Curious, how are the members of this council chosen? I'm thinking they are not elected but appointed.

Enjoy


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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31288
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 765 of 771 (862713)
09-11-2019 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 764 by RAZD
09-11-2019 7:41 AM


Re: Brexit fact of the day
They are the Heads of State of the member nations.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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