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Author Topic:   Brexit - Should they stay or should they go?
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1071
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 811 of 837 (868477)
12-12-2019 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 810 by Diomedes
12-12-2019 9:13 PM


Not too long - he’s said he won’t lead them at the next election.

What is more interesting for me, is whether this means that Momentum will now see their stranglehold on the Labour Party broken. It is blatantly clear that the UK needs moderate politics. I have had enough of extremists at both ends of the spectrum seeing populism as an opportunity to push (how can I put this gently) unwholesome agendas. Politics has always featured lies and theatre for the masses - but rarely as exclusively as it does now.

That said, at least with Momentum they don’t hide as much in the shadows. The Tories, under Dominic Cummings, are hiding their true agenda nicely behind blatant lies, deception and the cowardly, comic buffoon of a shill Bozzer.

Edited by vimesey, : No reason given.

Edited by vimesey, : No reason given.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 810 by Diomedes, posted 12-12-2019 9:13 PM Diomedes has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7437
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 812 of 837 (868482)
12-13-2019 2:04 AM


Poor old Liberals. RIP Jo Swinson.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 813 by vimesey, posted 12-13-2019 2:47 AM Tangle has responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1071
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


(2)
Message 813 of 837 (868484)
12-13-2019 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 812 by Tangle
12-13-2019 2:04 AM


I think people like you and me need to start being more vocal and active in our support of the proper values of a decent liberal democracy, Tangle. The populist agenda has silenced what they call the liberal elite (aka the decent people, who quietly looked out for the majority of people in society), leaving the path clear for the charlatans like Bozzer and Trump and the evil extremists burrowing away in their shadows.

There's no one left of any substance to stand up for what I believe the vast majority of decent people want, but don't have the time or energy to strive for. We were offered awful choices - we need to start carving a better future for our kids - else cede the field to the bastards.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 812 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2019 2:04 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 814 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2019 4:30 AM vimesey has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7437
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 814 of 837 (868485)
12-13-2019 4:30 AM
Reply to: Message 813 by vimesey
12-13-2019 2:47 AM


Boris is now in for 10 years unless something totally unexpected happens. But I'm trying to see an upside in it and I'm hoping that now he's got such a large majority that he doesn't have to listen to the far right and maybe he'll behave like a liberal 'one-nation' Tory.

Maybe someone here can pray for him.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 813 by vimesey, posted 12-13-2019 2:47 AM vimesey has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 815 by vimesey, posted 12-13-2019 5:00 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1071
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 815 of 837 (868486)
12-13-2019 5:00 AM
Reply to: Message 814 by Tangle
12-13-2019 4:30 AM


Maybe Ian Hislop has got something on him, from what went on in the green room on HIGNFY :-)

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 814 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2019 4:30 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 947
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 816 of 837 (868490)
12-13-2019 9:07 AM


The Final Results
Conservatives: 364 Seats
Labour: 203 Seats
SNP: 48 Seats
Lib Dems: 11
DUP: 8
Other: 15

Conservatives now have a comfortable majority to push their agenda.

I think this pretty much settles the near term. Brexit will happen in January and it will likely be Boris' deal. Subsequent to that, we shall see.

I think the one saving grace here is that I believe Boris will likely realize that the next few years are going to define his tenure as PM. As such, I am guessing he will likely work towards a more agreeable break from the EU and not push for a No Deal. Despite his bravado, I would think (hope) that he is pragmatic enough to realize that a No Deal would damage the economy and he would take blame for that.


Replies to this message:
 Message 817 by vimesey, posted 12-13-2019 10:35 AM Diomedes has not yet responded
 Message 818 by caffeine, posted 12-13-2019 6:18 PM Diomedes has not yet responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1071
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 817 of 837 (868496)
12-13-2019 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 816 by Diomedes
12-13-2019 9:07 AM


Re: The Final Results
I sincerely hope so - but let's keep vigilant.

I've got a broad range of concerns though:

1. Doing a sensible trade deal with the EU. Not an easy job.
2. Northern Ireland - will we see things regress ?
3. Donald Duck and his cronies destroying the NHS.
4. British farming being destroyed through competition from incoming US products with a far cheaper cost base due to far fewer regulations.
5. Boris is a coward. He showed his true colours ducking the Andrew Neil interview. Is he capable of standing up to Putin et al of he runs away from a sodding interview.
6. Dominic Cummings would look entirely at home in a pair of Jack boots.
7. Boris is a tit and an embarrassment to the country, on any basis you care to name.


Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 816 by Diomedes, posted 12-13-2019 9:07 AM Diomedes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 823 by Taq, posted 12-17-2019 6:29 PM vimesey has not yet responded

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1786
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 818 of 837 (868540)
12-13-2019 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 816 by Diomedes
12-13-2019 9:07 AM


Things that should be emphasised
Coverage of election results is always awful. Journalists seem incapable of comprehending numbers. Thankfully, I'm here. Things that should be realised:

The Conservative gain (in terms of votes) was small.

What the results mean is big, however. The only way to explain the results is millions of Labour voters switching to Conservative, with millions of Conservative voters switching to Lib Dem.

Because the British election system is designed in such a way that you matter less depending on where you live, this means a small net increase in votes means a large majority. It also means (in my opinion) that Brexit decided the election. Pro-Brexit Labour voters voted Tory and transformed the electoral map of Britain. Pro-Remain Tory voters voted Lib Dem and had no impact on the result; because in British democracy most people don't matter.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 816 by Diomedes, posted 12-13-2019 9:07 AM Diomedes has not yet responded

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 947
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 819 of 837 (868550)
12-14-2019 10:34 AM


Scottish referendum?
While Boris and the Conservatives ended up with a big majority, it can't be overlooked that the SNP also had a very good night. It looks like discussions are already occurring in Scotland regarding another potential referendum regarding Scotland leaving the UK.

Is that likely at this stage? I believe legally, that would need to be approved by parliament and I think Boris has already stated he would say no. Would the SNP potentially try and pull a Catalonia and just put forth a referendum without parliamentary approval?


Replies to this message:
 Message 820 by Heathen, posted 12-17-2019 2:30 AM Diomedes has responded

  
Heathen
Member
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 820 of 837 (868693)
12-17-2019 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 819 by Diomedes
12-14-2019 10:34 AM


Re: Scottish referendum?
Would the SNP potentially try and pull a Catalonia and just put forth a referendum without parliamentary approval?

I can't see Nicola Sturgeon going on the run like Carles Puigemont.

In other news... Today, Boris Johnson is pushing forward with legistlation to make it illegal to extend the transition period, thus making a hard brexit or "crash out" more likely.
any hopes of him not being beholden to the ERG extemists, due to his majority, seem to be evapourating.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 819 by Diomedes, posted 12-14-2019 10:34 AM Diomedes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 821 by Diomedes, posted 12-17-2019 8:59 AM Heathen has not yet responded

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 947
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 821 of 837 (868695)
12-17-2019 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 820 by Heathen
12-17-2019 2:30 AM


Re: Scottish referendum?
I can't see Nicola Sturgeon going on the run like Carles Puigemont.

Might have been entertaining to see her in Braveheart paint.

Today, Boris Johnson is pushing forward with legistlation to make it illegal to extend the transition period, thus making a hard brexit or "crash out" more likely.

No surprise there. That was one of the first things I had assumed he would do if he got his majority.

The question now is if he will use that as leverage for additional discussions with the EU. Potentially asking for more concessions on his deal.


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 Message 820 by Heathen, posted 12-17-2019 2:30 AM Heathen has not yet responded

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 947
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 822 of 837 (868728)
12-17-2019 2:24 PM


Jonathan Pie - Election Aftermath
It wouldn't be Brexit without a Jonathan Pie rant.


Replies to this message:
 Message 828 by Faith, posted 12-18-2019 5:12 PM Diomedes has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8262
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 6.3


Message 823 of 837 (868750)
12-17-2019 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 817 by vimesey
12-13-2019 10:35 AM


Re: The Final Results
vimesey writes:

Boris is a tit and an embarrassment to the country, on any basis you care to name.

For many of us Yanks, we can't help but say, "Now you know how we feel". We could arrange a play date with our government's leader, if you want. Just send him over on his bike:


This message is a reply to:
 Message 817 by vimesey, posted 12-13-2019 10:35 AM vimesey has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 824 by Tangle, posted 12-18-2019 3:52 AM Taq has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7437
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 824 of 837 (868769)
12-18-2019 3:52 AM
Reply to: Message 823 by Taq
12-17-2019 6:29 PM


Re: The Final Results
Boris is a clown but he's no idiot - he's a very clever guy. He's no Trump, I have a feeling he'll surprise us.

Well we have to hope.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 823 by Taq, posted 12-17-2019 6:29 PM Taq has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 825 by vimesey, posted 12-18-2019 4:11 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 826 by vimesey, posted 12-18-2019 8:22 AM Tangle has responded

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1071
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 825 of 837 (868770)
12-18-2019 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 824 by Tangle
12-18-2019 3:52 AM


Re: The Final Results
Hell, it's Christmas - I'll go with your optimism on this for a couple of weeks Tangle - not gonna let this ruin my mince pies ! The grimness can wait till 2020 ! :-)

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 824 by Tangle, posted 12-18-2019 3:52 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
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