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Author Topic:   The Great Creationist Fossil Failure
jar
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Posts: 32949
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 7 of 1163 (785959)
06-13-2016 5:37 PM


As the world turns & Days of our Lives & To Tell the Truth ...
Iterations.

There are many periodic things known in reality, day & night, summer & winter, wet & dry spells but the Biblical Flood is not one of those things. It was a singular event (even though there are two different mutually exclusive flood tales in the Bible even the Creationists do not claim there were two floods).

The Flood itself is described as taking about a year from beginning to end with all of the water rising happening in a relatively short 40 day and 40 night period.

So when we run across something like the Green River Varves, millions of repeating layers of fine sediment then coarse sediment then fine sediment, millions of iterations of the same pattern all stacked neatly, we need to look for some flood process, procedure, model, method, mechanism or thingamabob that might explain what is seen.

One layer is pretty easy to explain by flood effects. During the rapid rising water lots of debris would get picked up and when the rise stopped and recession began would get deposited. During the initial water level fall the coarsest material would get deposited first and then as things slowed down the finer materials.

But that is simply one iteration.

The Green River Varves repeat that cycle over and over and over again forming millions of layers.

To get a million such iterations in just the one year that the flood lasted would require at least two floods every minute of every hour of every day for the whole 365 days with each new flood somehow not disturbing the layers put down just a half hour earlier.

So far no such flood process, procedure, model, method, mechanism or thingamabob that might explain what is seen has been presented.

Some things have been suggested like tides, but unfortunately those are only twice a day not twice a minute.

Even if we tried to use the 6000 years YECs claim instead of just the claimed flood year we would need something that repeated every two days for all of the 6000 years right up to today and yet no such effect has been seen in that area for hundreds of years.

It's amazing.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32949
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


(2)
Message 14 of 1163 (785984)
06-14-2016 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Faith
06-14-2016 2:25 AM


Faith writes:

It is because there is no clear way to explain the supposed order of the fossil record that I now avoid it.

Almost correct. There is a clear way to explain the fossil record and folks have been explaining that way to you for over a decade now. The clear way is that species have evolved over the last billion or so years and their remains are found in the materials and environment of the earth at the time they lived and died.

Faith writes:

But there are plenty of other proofs that the whole idea is a delusion, mostly having to do with the millions of years between "records" and the fact that the "record" is so neatly stacked in layers of different kinds of rock which defies the explanation of normal death and burial.

And here you depart in fantasy. You offer no proofs that what we see was not created over billions of years. The layers are not stacked neatly and the actual content of layers varies depending on the location of any given column. Further, it does not defy an explanation of normal death and burial but is exactly what should be seen if in fact what we are looking at is the record of billions of years of history.

Faith writes:

A major proof against the Old Earth explanation is the apparent lack of normal surface activity on the earth as shown by the relative flatness of the layers, and some of knife-edge flatness, all the way up through the "Quaternary" period, at which time massive disturbances of the surface of the earth are evident for the first time in all that history.

Again, as has been explained to you many times over the last decade or so none of that is true. There is no knife edge flatness but rather the clear evidence of weathering, erosion and subsequent overlaying. There is evidence of massive disturbances and those too have been pointed out to you.

Faith writes:

This is evident in the Grand Canyon particularly, where the layers are exposed to such a great depth, but it is easily enough inferred from less clearcut exposures. I've proved this many times.

Again Faith, that is simply not true. Consider the Great Unconformity, where from about 175 million years of material to over a billion years of material is simply missing.

Now granted you simply deny such things exist or that what is seen means what folk tell you it means but the fact is irrefutable that the current explanation of normal processes we see today over billions of years of time adequately and totally explains what is seen.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin there ----> their


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member
Posts: 32949
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 52 of 1163 (786142)
06-17-2016 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by herebedragons
06-17-2016 10:48 AM


Re: conflicting creationist mechanisms
This is simply another great example of why the whole idea that one of the Biblical Flood myths might be true is simply so ridiculous and absurd.

Supposedly the fossils are evidence of all the killing the god character did in the myths.

And supposedly the layers are the result of the flood as well.

And supposedly all the layers with all the things the god character killed were put there by the imaginary flood.

BUT this magic flood also did many magic things.

It was able to magically sort materials in a way no one has ever been able to produce a flood model, mechanism, process, procedure or thingamabob could explain.

BUT WAIT...there's more:

In addition, it also sorted all the critters so that no humans ever ended up in a layer with dinosaurs. It also left some pretty significant fossils of only one type particular critter along with other critters that live in the sea into a stack seen as the White Cliffs of Dover. But unfortunately once again no one has ever been able to produce a flood model, mechanism, process, procedure or thingamabob would do do that.

The idea that there was a Biblical Flood is simply DOA and has been dead for hundreds of years. Today it is nothing but a Zombie.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member
Posts: 32949
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 81 of 1163 (786237)
06-19-2016 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Faith
06-19-2016 9:03 AM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
If they were buried by one of the Biblical Floods then they were alive at the time the flood happened as were all the mammals and fish and sea mammals.

How did the flood manage to bury only those critters without burying all the fish, sea mammals and other animals that were alive at the same time?

Why are fossils of those critters NEVER found in the same layer as fossils of mammals, fish, sea mammals?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 06-19-2016 9:03 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 06-19-2016 10:16 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32949
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 84 of 1163 (786240)
06-19-2016 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
06-19-2016 10:16 AM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
Faith writes:

All land animals were represented on the ark, those left out were killed in the Flood.

Sea creatures died in huge numbers though some had to survive because they are living today. I can only guess at how some managed to live while most died. I would guess that most died because of all the sediment in the water that suffocated them. Those that lived happened to be where the water was cleaner.

That depends on which of the two Biblical Flood myths you are using as a reference. According to Genesis 7 everything living gets wiped out except what is on the ark and that would include anything in the sea. But that's one of the great things about the Bible stories; there are so many contradictions you can pick a piece out of context to prove most anything.

But that still does not answer the question.

Why are no modern fish, modern crustaceans, modern sea mammals or modern animals every found in the same layer as those critters anywhere in the world?

Why is there a layer above the Redwall that does contain fossils of winged insects, vertebrate animals, ferns and other land plants but none of the critters found in the Redwall formation?

And then why above that layer is there a layer that has sand dunes and tracks of scorpions and millipedes and lizard like critters.

And then even higher there is a layer with corals and terrestrial plants and other animals and shark teeth?

If this is all the result of some flood, how did the flood sort the critters it buries in exactly the order expected if each layer represents what would have been living at the time the layer was put down?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 06-19-2016 10:16 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Faith, posted 06-19-2016 10:45 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32949
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 89 of 1163 (786245)
06-19-2016 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Faith
06-19-2016 10:45 AM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
Faith writes:

jar writes:

According to Genesis 7 everything living gets wiped out except what is on the ark and that would include anything in the sea.

No, it doesn't:

Genesis 7 writes:

For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

"Face of the earth" is taken to refer to the LAND.

No, you mean YOU and the other apologists take it to refer to the LAND; but it does not say land. The seas are certainly on the face of the earth.

But even if what you assert were true, that still does not answer the question or solve the fact that what is seen refutes the stories is really is what is actually there.

Why are no modern fish, modern crustaceans, modern sea mammals or modern animals every found in the same layer as those critters anywhere in the world?

Why is there a layer above the Redwall that does contain fossils of winged insects, vertebrate animals, ferns and other land plants but none of the critters found in the Redwall formation?

And then why above that layer is there a layer that has sand dunes and tracks of scorpions and millipedes and lizard like critters.

And then even higher there is a layer with corals and terrestrial plants and other animals and shark teeth?

If this is all the result of some flood, how did the flood sort the critters it buries in exactly the order expected if each layer represents what would have been living at the time the layer was put down?

If the flood is burying and killing what is living at the time, how does the flood you assert happened sort the various fossils into different types of materials and different layers?

Edited by jar, : left out a couple words that made a sentence gibberish.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-19-2016 11:27 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32949
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 94 of 1163 (786254)
06-19-2016 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Dr Adequate
06-19-2016 11:27 AM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
DA writes:

No-one would read the Book of Genesis and think it meant that all the fish drowned.

No one would think the fish drowned BUT rather that the story says they would be destroyed, killed.

Genesis 7 writes:

For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights;and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

Not what the story actually says. The god characters says Every Living Thing that I have made I will Destroy. Not just every land animal. Not just animals and not plants, but every living thing I have made.

Seems pretty clear to me that includes what is in the sea.

BUT, as I pointed out to Faith, even if you take it to mean just land animals or just stuff that is on land, it still does not explain the reality of what does exist.

Why are no modern fish, modern crustaceans, modern sea mammals or modern animals every found in the same layer as those critters anywhere in the world?

Why is there a layer above the Redwall that does contain fossils of winged insects, vertebrate animals, ferns and other land plants but none of the critters found in the Redwall formation?

And then why above that layer is there a layer that has sand dunes and tracks of scorpions and millipedes and lizard like critters.

And then even higher there is a layer with corals and terrestrial plants and other animals and shark teeth?

If this is all the result of some flood, how did the flood sort the critters it buries in exactly the order expected if each layer represents what would have been living at the time the layer was put down?

If the flood is burying and killing what is living at the time, how does the flood you assert happened sort the various fossils into different types of materials and different layers?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-19-2016 11:27 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32949
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 165 of 1163 (786846)
06-28-2016 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Minnemooseus
06-28-2016 12:03 AM


Re: The creationist "hypothetical geologic column"
some Creationist source writes:

The column to the left represents the maximum thickness of sedimentary rock attributed to each geologic period (100 miles).

Why in the world don't statements like that immediately raise the "Bull Shit" flag for anyone that reads them?

Who attributed 100 miles as the maximum thickness of some layer?

Why would periods of different length result in similar depth deposits?

As usual, do they ever present the model, method, process, procedure or thingamabob that will explain their assertion?

Are there really people that can read such nonsense with laughing at the utter ridiculousness of such an assertion?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 163 by Minnemooseus, posted 06-28-2016 12:03 AM Minnemooseus has acknowledged this reply

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jar
Member
Posts: 32949
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 228 of 1163 (787086)
07-03-2016 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by Pressie
07-03-2016 9:22 AM


The point is Mike simply confirms once again the fact that NO Creationist has ever been able to present a model, method, process, procedure of thingamabob that can explain the fossil evidence or geological evidence or the existence of salt beds of the Green River Varves or honestly any actual physical reality found on the earth by anything other than magic.

Mike is no different than Faith or any other Creationist who has ever posted here or anywhere else for that matter.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member
Posts: 32949
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


(4)
Message 242 of 1163 (787125)
07-04-2016 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by edge
07-04-2016 2:39 PM


Young Earth and Creationism really are DOA
Percy really dislikes my use of the description "The Christian Cult of Ignorance" but unfortunately it is both the most accurate and kindest description I have ever found. What we see here and also in US politics, on the Avoidance School book lists, the Avoidance Accrediting Boards, the Avoidance Broadcasting Networks and all of the so-called Creation Science Marketing venues is classic willful ignorance. We see it in threads like this, like the thread started not too long ago on the "Science in Creationism", in threads like those on how salt beds get formed or how varves are created or the layers of the Grand Canyon is simply a refusal to address the issues raised.

The common factor to all of the YEC and Creationist positions is that they are ALL wrong, ALL TOTALLY WRONG, all a failure because they are based on a process designed not to find out what is correct but to support a prior held conclusion.

That is why no Creationist really tries to present a model, method, process, procedure or thingamabob that would actually explain what is seen EXCEPT when within a certified Avoidance Audience. This is why when any of the followers gives it a try they either simply refuse to address the issues like Mike or baffle folk with bullshit or pound the podium or just say others will burn in hell for what they say or the most common response particularly from those who claim to be Creation Scientists is to run away.

They are all based on Willful Ignorance, on not looking at reality, on Apologetics.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member
Posts: 32949
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


(3)
Message 263 of 1163 (787321)
07-09-2016 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Faith
07-09-2016 1:55 PM


Re: Paleogeology resources
Faith writes:

I'm not in the slightest interested in "taking on" the details of all science

And that is why you will continue to be willfully ignorant when it comes to science, geology, anthropology, physics, history and reality.

Faith writes:

I know you would like to define for me what I SHOULD be interested in but oddly enough I do have an agenda of my own that you apparently don't grasp.

Oh, we all grasp your agenda. Dogma over facts. It seems you can add "the Bible" to the list of things where you have not the slightest interested in taking on the details.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Faith, posted 07-09-2016 1:55 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Faith, posted 07-10-2016 1:59 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32949
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 267 of 1163 (787339)
07-10-2016 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by Faith
07-10-2016 1:59 AM


Re: Paleogeology resources
Well, no, I am not requiring anything of you I would not expect from anyone that is honest, scientist or layman.

Faith writes:

Also you obviously have no idea of my agenda, why I prefer particular arguments over others.

Of course I and most everyone else is fully aware of your agenda; you want to try to explain away the obvious factual errors found throughout the Bible stories. Unfortunately that is impossible and no one has ever been able to provide ANY flood model that explains the actual evidence.

Oh, the apologists can make shit up and the Christian Cult of Ignorance will swallow their nonsense, but all they have is still just nonsense.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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jar
Member
Posts: 32949
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


(4)
Message 280 of 1163 (787364)
07-11-2016 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by Faith
07-11-2016 3:38 AM


The established way of looking at things did get overturned.
Faith writes:

Just how likely do you think it is that anyone committed to the established way of looking at these things would want to find something that might overthrow the whole idea of evolution anyway?

That is a very important and telling statement Faith because that is exactly what happened in real life.

Geologist and all other scientists were committed to the established idea that the earth was young, that there had been a Biblical Flood, that Special Creation actually happened and went out looking for evidence that supported and would confirm the established idea.

What they found though was that there was overwhelming evidence that the Earth was very old, that man was not a Special Creation but instead the result of billions of years of evolution and that there was absolute evidence that no world wide flood had happened at anytime when man existed on Earth. In fact the evidence was so complete, so totally convincing that in just one lifetime every scientist in every field of knowledge agreed that the established paradigm that there had been a Biblical Flood, that Special Creation and a young Earth actually happened was simply wrong and had to be abandoned.

The evidence shows that Science as opposed to Dogma does overthrow established ideas when the evidence demands it.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Edited by jar, : fix sub-title


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 32949
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 283 of 1163 (787367)
07-11-2016 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by Faith
07-11-2016 6:31 AM


Speaking of Hubris
Faith writes:

The sequence and extent of the strata described in that quote support the Flood very nicely.

You keep making claims like the above Faith yet you (as well as every other so called Flood believer) never provide a model, method, process, procedure or thingamabob that actually explains the way any flood could sort the fossils in the order that they are found, sort materials to lay down geological layers in the sequence they are found or any other evidence found in reality.

If you wish to continue to make such claims then don't you think it is about time you actually provided a model, method, process, procedure or thingamabob that actually explains the way any flood could sort the fossils in the order that they are found, sort materials to lay down geological layers in the sequence they are found or any other evidence found in reality.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Faith, posted 07-11-2016 6:31 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32949
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


(2)
Message 290 of 1163 (787396)
07-12-2016 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by NoNukes
07-12-2016 1:17 AM


Re: Paleogeology resources
NoNukes about Faith writes:

The fact that you are enabled to avoid acknowledging that yo are wrong by limiting your field of view appears to me to be the actual result you desire.

And thus the Avoidance Movement; Avoidance Christian Schools using Avoidance Textbooks and Avoidance Teachers accredited by Avoidance Accreditation Boards; Avoidance Networks and Forums; Avoidance Colleges and Universities.

If you can limit exposure to the facts that you do not like you can create your own little fantasy world.

Unfortunately for them it is getting harder and harder to persuade the kiddies.

Edited by jar, : fix attribution

Edited by jar, : not Faith Faith


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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