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Author Topic:   The Great Creationist Fossil Failure
Coyote
Member (Idle past 761 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 146 of 1163 (786454)
06-21-2016 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Faith
06-21-2016 10:11 PM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
You put all your trust in radiometric dating. I don't know why it's wrong but it's obviously wrong.

Ignorance is not evidence, nor is religious belief.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Faith, posted 06-21-2016 10:11 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 761 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 229 of 1163 (787087)
07-03-2016 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by mike the wiz
07-03-2016 9:20 AM


Interpretations?
It does not follow that creationists are liars because they interpret the evidence differently to you

Not all interpretations are of equal value.

Some, when supported by most or all of the available data are quite valuable and generally can add to new knowledge by making accurate predictions. In science, these are called theories.

Other interpretations that are contradicted by most or all of the available data are worthless except as thought exercises or models to test assumptions. But creationists aren't using their interpretations as thought exercises or models to test assumptions, they are trying to fit the real world evidence into a biblical framework--and it doesn't fit.

Don't you know what an ad-hominem argument is yet? It is a diversion.

If you look upthread a good many of your posts consist of diversions from the topic we are dealing with.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by mike the wiz, posted 07-03-2016 9:20 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 761 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 253 of 1163 (787302)
07-09-2016 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Faith
07-09-2016 12:17 PM


Re: Paleogeology resources
Faith writes:

It's nice to know all that information is available, as I thought it ought to be, but unfortunately it's not exactly layman-friendly. To make use of it to study the claims of the fossil record would require a lot of translation of terms for starters.

That's one problem we have in debating you on this site.

I did half my Ph.D. work in the fields of fossil man and osteology and I have handled casts of most of the important finds up until about 1980. I have kept up with a decent amount of the literature since then. I know a lot about the subject.

The problem: you don't.

You have convictions and opinions, but not the scientific background to debate the issues adequately or to support your convictions and opinions. You don't do your research and homework, and then you complain that we are using terms you don't understand. And to make matters worse, you just deny or "reinterpret" anything we present that does not fit your opinions, no matter how much it contradicts the real-world evidence.

You're doing religious apologetics, not science.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Faith, posted 07-09-2016 12:17 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 761 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 336 of 1163 (787498)
07-16-2016 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 331 by Faith
07-15-2016 9:58 PM


Re: geologic "Column"
The best evidence for the Flood is the simple facts of the strata which are known to be laid down by water, an awful lot of it one would suppose from the great depth of much of the strata, certainly no river deposits those; and the enormous number of fossils.

Or, those strata were laid down over millions to nearly billions of years by water in various places at various times.

That's what the evidence shows. It is only your belief that leads you to other interpretations that are not supported by the evidence--and in fact, that are completely disproved by the evidence.

No matter how many objections you can dream up against the Flood, and how much you prefer your own interpretations to ours, you really ought to concede that billions of dead things buried in layers of sediment under conditions ideal for fossilization really is great evidence for a worldwide Flood.

Or, those billions of dead things buried in layers of sediment... are evidence for parts of the Earth being under water at various times in the past. There is nothing in the evidence that suggests those dead things were buried in a short time, but a huge body of evidence that shows both long time periods and change over time for those dead things.

["Dead things." Is that a new technical term for fossils?]

You don't have to concede the whole shebang, but fairness really does require this much of you.

If you want to talk about fairness, it would behoove you to examine your own posts and interpretations.

You start with belief and then do your best to fit the evidence into that belief. When it clearly doesn't fit, you don't question your beliefs, but try to fudge and manipulate and ignore the evidence to make it fit.

When that doesn't work you do anything you can to avoid the facts of the real world, so that you can maintain your beliefs.

That leads to some amazing mental and verbal gyrations that Olympic athletes would be proud of--but which scientists are not impressed by.

Truly, if you had evidence for your claims you would be awarded a Nobel prize--a special one would be created as there is no prize for this category. But you don't have evidence--only belief.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by Faith, posted 07-15-2016 9:58 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 761 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 587 of 1163 (793738)
11-05-2016 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 584 by mindspawn
11-05-2016 5:48 PM


Radiometric dating
Well this isn't the thread to discuss the flaws of radiometric dating.

Right.

The correct thread is one I proposed months back, and to which no creationist has yet contributed:

http://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=msg&t=19229

Care to try your luck?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 584 by mindspawn, posted 11-05-2016 5:48 PM mindspawn has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 761 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 591 of 1163 (793744)
11-05-2016 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 589 by mindspawn
11-05-2016 6:32 PM


Re: More amazing sorting
One would expect human settlements to have being in the less vulnerable regions with eco-systems similar to ones where mammals currently thrive ie where angiosperms are a prevalent part of the eco-system.

As has been pointed out, humans came along about 250 million years after the period you're discussing. All your wishin' and hopin' isn't going to change that.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 589 by mindspawn, posted 11-05-2016 6:32 PM mindspawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 593 by mindspawn, posted 11-05-2016 6:54 PM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 761 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 595 of 1163 (793748)
11-05-2016 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 593 by mindspawn
11-05-2016 6:54 PM


Re: More amazing sorting
Sorry, your oopsies are nonsense.

First, to have humans traipsing around some 250+ million years ago would mean that they were present in all time periods since. The evidence shows that's not the case.

Second, the fossil record shows a pretty good progression from early primates to modern humans over the last 60 or so million years.

But what you would ask us to believe is that these huge masses of evidence are all wrong because of a few dubious finds. That's pretty silly.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 593 by mindspawn, posted 11-05-2016 6:54 PM mindspawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 601 by mindspawn, posted 11-05-2016 7:36 PM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 761 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 605 of 1163 (793758)
11-05-2016 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 601 by mindspawn
11-05-2016 7:36 PM


Re: More amazing sorting
Even haplogroup evidence points to this human dispersion from the Middle East.

Not so: DNA evidence shows something more like this:


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 601 by mindspawn, posted 11-05-2016 7:36 PM mindspawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 608 by mindspawn, posted 11-05-2016 8:10 PM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 761 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 613 of 1163 (793766)
11-05-2016 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 608 by mindspawn
11-05-2016 8:10 PM


Re: More amazing sorting
You didn't show the haplogroup map, which is what I am referring to.

The caption for the map I posted:

Genetic analyses indicate that there were three distinct waves of prehistoric migrants from Asia to North America. Y-DNA haplogroups are indicated by blue lines, while mitochondrial DNA is indicated by the yellow lines. (Note: Since this map was published in 2008, the M3 mutation has been grouped under the larger haplogroup Q. (So, Q-M3.))
Map by National Geographic Society

https://blog.education.nationalgeographic.com/...gh-language

In other words, those lines represent haplogroups...


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 608 by mindspawn, posted 11-05-2016 8:10 PM mindspawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 624 by mindspawn, posted 11-06-2016 3:08 AM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 761 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 616 of 1163 (793769)
11-05-2016 8:36 PM


Boundaries
Biblical scholars place the flood about 4,350 years ago, but since there is no evidence for a flood at that time creationists keep searching farther and farther back, looking for anything that might fit.

A lot of creationists, our own missing Faith included, place the flood back at the KT or PT boundaries for the simple reason that they can't find evidence that isn't easily refuted for anything more recent.

The fact that they then have to pretend humans were around 60 or 250 million years ago seems to be an easy problem for them to overcome. They generally mumble something about the dating being wrong somehow (but of course they can't provide any evidence for how) and proceed merrily on their way, ignoring mountains of evidence that shows them to be wrong.

Creation "science" as usual, eh?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


Replies to this message:
 Message 621 by NoNukes, posted 11-05-2016 11:36 PM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 761 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 644 of 1163 (793805)
11-06-2016 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 624 by mindspawn
11-06-2016 3:08 AM


Re: Haplogroups
Other than a map with arrows, have you any true evidence that in fact humans did come from Africa rather than what the haplogroup spread would suggest?

If you look at the DNA evidence it is clear that humans originated in Africa. The mixture of Neanderthal DNA is another clue.

And the "map with arrows" reflects that evidence.

Better stay away from those creationist websites--they're lying to you!


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 624 by mindspawn, posted 11-06-2016 3:08 AM mindspawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 647 by mindspawn, posted 11-06-2016 9:38 AM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 761 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 645 of 1163 (793806)
11-06-2016 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 630 by mindspawn
11-06-2016 5:15 AM


Re: Stromatolites
There are many creationist websites that show anomalies in radiometric dating.

They're lying to you.

But if you want to discuss the issue, I started a thread just for that late last summer. Bring the problems with radiometric dating to that thread.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 630 by mindspawn, posted 11-06-2016 5:15 AM mindspawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 646 by mindspawn, posted 11-06-2016 9:35 AM Coyote has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 761 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 650 of 1163 (793817)
11-06-2016 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 647 by mindspawn
11-06-2016 9:38 AM


Re: Haplogroups
Massive Genetic Study Supports "Out of Africa" Theory
John Roach
for National Geographic News
February 21, 2008

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...21-human-genetics.html

A massive new study of human genetic diversity reveals surprising insights into our species' evolution and migrations—including support for the theory that the first modern humans originated in Africa—scientists said today.

Researchers compared 650,000 genetic markers in nearly a thousand individuals from 51 populations around the globe—an unprecedented level of detail for a human genetic study.

"You get less and less variation the further you go from Africa," said Marcus Feldman, an evolutionary biologist at Stanford University in California and a study co-author.

Such a pattern fits the theory that the first modern humans settled the world in stepping-stone fashion after leaving Africa less than 100,000 years ago.

As each small group of people broke away to found a new region, it took only a sample of the parent population's genetic diversity.

"If you keep sampling like that, then mathematically you must lose variation," Feldman explained.

More


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 647 by mindspawn, posted 11-06-2016 9:38 AM mindspawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 655 by mindspawn, posted 11-06-2016 10:11 AM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 761 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 668 of 1163 (793837)
11-06-2016 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 655 by mindspawn
11-06-2016 10:11 AM


Re: Haplogroups
Here is another map, this one mtDNA:


This clearly shows L0 and L1 in Africa, with everything else being descended from those two haplogroups.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 655 by mindspawn, posted 11-06-2016 10:11 AM mindspawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 670 by mindspawn, posted 11-06-2016 11:52 AM Coyote has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 761 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 672 of 1163 (793843)
11-06-2016 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 670 by mindspawn
11-06-2016 11:52 AM


Re: Haplogroups
Look I do understand why they assume they come from Africa because certain African groups are without certain ancient mutations that every other group has.

That's pretty definitive evidence for modern humans originating in Africa.

However this could also mean these groups migrated out the Middle East earlier than the rest. ie the assumption of location during earlier times could be the wrong assumption, especially when the rest of the groups expanded out from the Middle East.

And they could have caught a local Metro bus for the journey. That's just about as likely as your scenario.

You are ignoring a lot of evidence and making up increasingly unlikely "what ifs" to support your a priori religious beliefs. That's not doing science.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 670 by mindspawn, posted 11-06-2016 11:52 AM mindspawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 676 by mindspawn, posted 11-06-2016 12:59 PM Coyote has responded

  
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