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Author Topic:   The Great Creationist Fossil Failure
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 9 of 1163 (785972)
06-14-2016 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Adequate
06-13-2016 2:08 PM


When I say this thread in the proposal bin, I spent some time looking at what Creationists generally say about the fossil record these days. Clearly some time has gone by since the first of the exchanges between Creationist Science proponents and others, and it is to be expected that some arguments have been refined.

ICR's has a page on the subject to be found here: http://www.icr.org/article/real-nature-fossil-record/

Generally speaking, this article does not deal much with scientific rebuttals and surely a criticism that the fossil record is not what Creationist propose is directly on target. Essentially none of the criticism Dr. Adequate cites is addressed. On top of that there are more BS assertions such as the following:

quote:
The fossil record can be deemed essentially complete. Darwin was concerned about its lack of transitional forms, hypothetical creatures that demonstrate one type changing into another over time. He was hopeful they would be found one day.

But extensive exploration and fossil discovery in following years have not brought such in-between forms to light. The vast majority of taxonomic orders and families which live today are also found as fossils, yet without fossil transitions. We can be certain the record is substantially complete.


This article bears at 2010 copyright date and Dr. John Morris is identified as the author.

One comment I did not see mentioned in the OP is just the outright denial that there is any way to assign time periods to fossil. This argument is not so much a defense of the creation science model as it is an attack on the science, without regard for the limitations in the creationist view. Probably a more successful route, because trying to explain the actual record Biblically does not work.

Examples of other arguments along this line or simply asserting a simple Biblical model and attacking science without doing much of a fossil record comparison:

http://www.gotquestions.org/fossil-record.html

Mentions of Nebraska, or Piltdown man without full context. Simplifying the creationist model by saying "fossils represent death" without even paying lip service to what the fossil record actually looks like. This should sound familiar.

http://creationtoday.org/creationist-challenge/

Puts forward the all animals are complete, no transition animals in the record despite evolutionist predictions. No real discussion of the Biblical model. Poses questions for scientist like "Who invented gravity" and "How could there are equal numbers of male and females". No, I do not exaggerate here.

http://www.creationism.org/topbar/fossils_en.htm

Asserts that the fossil record matches science without any detail.

quote:
The evidence of Earth life's one time massive destruction in the Great Flood lies beneath your feet right now; we call this the fossil record.

The talks about their not being any transitional fossils.

AIG page:

https://answersingenesis.org/...ur-national-monument-in-utah

I found AIGs entry the most surprising. Just a posting of an overview of the evolutionary explanation (nothing objectionable really, just a glossing over without detail) and a presentation of the Biblical view with a mention of the fates of clams and dinosaurs, but noting nothing else needing much explanation.

But included is a discussion of an error made in identifying a "Brontosaurus" from fossil remains. Again, a dig at science with only superficial review of either the science model or the Biblical one.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-13-2016 2:08 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 1163 (786229)
06-19-2016 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Faith
06-18-2016 9:09 PM


Re: TOPIC
It turns out that there are many ways to do that for many questions, even if a lot remains unanswered. It is not "honest" to give up on the Bible if you are a believer.

If I said exactly the same thing, including using scare quotes around the words honest, these words would be easily recognizable as an indictment of your approach. Yeah, there are many ways to do that for questions, but of course by definition, most of those ways are completely wrong. Apparently, though, the goal is not to be right, but to have an explanation, and therefore all of those myriad ways are perfectly viable and honest.

Just wow.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 06-18-2016 9:09 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 06-19-2016 8:43 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 115 of 1163 (786296)
06-19-2016 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Faith
06-19-2016 4:29 PM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
But from the Flood point of view there can only be mechanical reasons for the supposed order, the order can only be an illusion of some sort, and until the mechanical explanations are better understood there is nothing to say about it.

I'm not sure that statements like this one actually require a comment, but I'll err on the side of posting this time.

It is not that we don't understand the "explanations", it is that they do not work. Your insistent on relying on "illusion" in lieu of understanding, which you postulate might come at some point, is an express admission that the facts are completely unimportant, and that your current position is held for the sole reason of self persuasion. You cannot explain, therefore it is an illusion, until it can be explained? Then not an illusion? Really?

For people without such needs, given that all that is required of Creationists is making stuff up, the lack of a mechanical explanation is fairly telling. To everyone except a person engaging in 'self-persuasion' the current state of affairs would be evidence that the 'mechanical sorting' explanation is wrong.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 06-19-2016 4:29 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Faith, posted 06-19-2016 7:39 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 117 of 1163 (786304)
06-19-2016 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Faith
06-19-2016 7:39 PM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
wasn't talking about YOU understanding, I was simply saying the mechanics aren't yet understood... by anybody

Sigh. What you are saying simply means that the made up mechanics are not complete. As was indicated in the OP, YEC folks say flood and then make up stories, which you acknowledge are all wrong. Meanwhile, the mechanics of floods and water are well understood.

And beyond that, what is the impact? You are still maintaining that what those mechanics attempt to explain is mere illusion based on the failure to explain them in YEC terms. How is that statement any less true based on the details of what you don't understand? At least it would be honest to simply wait on the details. But what you admit doing is simply denying the facts by calling them illusion up until a better YEC story is available.

And no, I am not guessing. You already told us.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Faith, posted 06-19-2016 7:39 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Faith, posted 06-20-2016 1:40 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 120 of 1163 (786309)
06-20-2016 3:50 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Faith
06-20-2016 1:40 AM


Re: The Redwall Limestone: A Case In Point
I'd say we make more or less educated guesses about what happened, which anti-Floodists are incapable of doing because they follow their prejudices

Coming from you, such a statement is laughable. You are fixated on having a single result. Scientist are not actually trying to active disprove any particular idea, and it still turns out that the evidence does not support a flood.

and are always looking for some way to debunk the idea.

Debunking is what everyone should be doing before they pronounce that their idea actually works. It is a step that you yourself never take.

And I don't recall saying any of it is "all wrong,"

So saying that there is no way to explain the order of fossils in the face of attempts to do just that is not equivalent to saying that those who profess to have an explanation are wrong. Sure seems so to me.

What? The supposed order of the fossil record is an illusion, period, not "based on" whether we can understand the Flood in mechanical terms or not.

Order and timing are not the entire issue. The rest of the issue is what is found with what, and of course that neither complies with Great Flood explanations nor is it an illusion. Perhaps you should go back and read more of Dr. Adequate's posts.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Faith, posted 06-20-2016 1:40 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 214 of 1163 (787045)
07-02-2016 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by mike the wiz
07-01-2016 4:15 PM


Perhaps mike the wiz, ICANT, and Faith together make a great point. None of those folks subscribe to the stuff that AIG and ICR put out. In fact, I cannot remember too many folks who toe that particular line very closely visiting here in the last few years. It seems to me that we used to get the occasional poster who tried to defend the creation science as put out by the "Big boys", but I've met plenty of creationists; my family has includes lots of folks who insist that Genesis is literally correct. Most of those folks haven't looked at a picture of the Grand Canyon since high school, and they could not tell a microscope from a telescope.

When we generalize about what Creationist think, we mainly mean YEC folks. But how many of those folks care about Creation Science or have ever debated with someone who knows anything about real geology? Maybe attributing any particular creation science belief to creationists in general is just wrong.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by mike the wiz, posted 07-01-2016 4:15 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-02-2016 1:20 AM NoNukes has responded
 Message 225 by mike the wiz, posted 07-03-2016 9:11 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply
 Message 240 by herebedragons, posted 07-04-2016 7:31 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 216 of 1163 (787063)
07-02-2016 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Dr Adequate
07-02-2016 1:20 AM


I don't think either mike or Faith actually said they don't subscribe to this stuff

Faith has at least acknowledged that there is no way to explain the sorting so that's at least a tacit admission that folks who do make those explanations have not got it right. Morr generally. Faith seems to have her own explanations about geology and biology that may reach similar conclusions, but which have a wackiness separate from that of conventional Creation Science.

Mike isn't all that specific, but from what I can gather, he does not seem to think that your some of you specific accusations apply to him.

Well, yes, when one attributes any even slightly detailed ideas to creationists one is talking about the activists.

Activists means a tiny fraction of the folks who subscribe to a fundamentalist interpretation of Genesis. It would not even include most fundamentalists pastors.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-02-2016 1:20 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-02-2016 6:24 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 218 of 1163 (787068)
07-02-2016 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Dr Adequate
07-02-2016 6:24 PM


they just assume it's been done somewhere else by someone else

I think even this assumes too much. A more common fundamentalist view is that what scientists do regarding is simply fraught with the same error that plagues all human endeavor. More extreme folks might insist that Satan is involved somehow. No other explanation for why science gets things wrong is even needed. The real proof that there was a great flood is that Genesis, the first book in the unquestioned Word of God, says that there was a great flood.

Need more than that? Then where is your faith, brother? Do you question the resurrection of Jesus Christ too?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-02-2016 6:24 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 245 of 1163 (787133)
07-05-2016 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by herebedragons
07-04-2016 7:31 AM


The question is WHY don't they subscribe to the stuff the "Big Boys" are putting out?

Given how much of that stuff is clearly wrong, should not the question be how does somebody with any inclination to pursue a scientific explanation subscribe to any of it?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by herebedragons, posted 07-04-2016 7:31 AM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 265 of 1163 (787335)
07-10-2016 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by Faith
07-10-2016 1:59 AM


Re: Paleogeology resources
You are requiring of me far more than is expected of a scientist in any particular field.

It might well be reasonable for a biologist not to study genetics, for example, if he is not going to expound on traits are formed. But if he wanted to discuss an evolution topic that touched on genetics, we would certainly expect him to make some study of the topics. But as long as he is 'staying in his lane' no one expects a scientist to know everything. If a biologist were to give us some bad info and then tell us that he was not interested in a related topic that contradicted him, then he'd get the some treatment you get here.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Faith, posted 07-10-2016 1:59 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Faith, posted 07-10-2016 3:07 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 288 of 1163 (787387)
07-12-2016 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by Faith
07-10-2016 3:07 AM


Re: Paleogeology resources
That is an unfair requirement when the point is a very limited point that does not require extensive knowledge of a whole field.

You are wrong. The requirement is totally fair regardless of how difficult that makes things for you. What we are discussing here is central to your claims that you and scientists simply have different interpretations of the same evidence.

Not all interpretations are created equal. To some extent, it is irrelevant how you come up with an hypothesis. The second step after making an interpretation or hypothesis based on evidence is to vet that interpretation. Interpretations that do not survive vetting by you or anyone else must be dropped regardless of the field of expertise required to do the vetting. For that reason, you don't have the luxury of cherry picking what fields of study you need to learn. You have to address issue based on any legitimate objection from any field.

The alternative is to simply persuade yourself of something that has an enormous chance of being wrong. I don't think that fact bothers you. The fact that you are enabled to avoid acknowledging that yo are wrong by limiting your field of view appears to me to be the actual result you desire.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Faith, posted 07-10-2016 3:07 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by jar, posted 07-12-2016 8:26 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 289 of 1163 (787388)
07-12-2016 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by jar
07-11-2016 8:44 AM


Re: The established way of looking at things did get overturned.
Geologist and all other scientists were committed to the established idea that the earth was young, that there had been a Biblical Flood, that Special Creation actually happened and went out looking for evidence that supported and would confirm the established idea.

Nicely said.

And of course Faith's answer is to question the commitment of folks who let science convince them to drop the truth. What those folks should have done is to put down their picks and shovels and then pick up their Bible Genesis and reconnect with the God of the OT.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by jar, posted 07-11-2016 8:44 AM jar has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 333 of 1163 (787495)
07-15-2016 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by Faith
07-15-2016 9:58 PM


Re: geologic "Column"
My guess would be that circumstances did a lot of the sorting too: It's pretty clear that the land animals were caught up in the Flood later, as the water kept rising on the land, while mostly marine creatures were deposited in the earlier stages.

Except that you are still nowhere near describing the complexity of the actual arrangement of things.

No matter how many objections you can dream up against the Flood, and how much you prefer your own interpretations to ours, you really ought to concede that billions of dead things buried in layers of sediment under conditions ideal for fossilization really is great evidence for a worldwide Flood.

Well, no. The great flood is consistent with having billions of dead animals, just as a dead body is consistent with any person on earth having murdered someone. The problem is that if we look even trivially hard at any of the details associated with those fossils, we find that the flood does not answer our questions.

Being consistent on a gross detail simply is not good enough. Given that having lots of dead animals is also completely consistent with the passage of time without a global flood, then no, fossils are not evidence for your position.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by Faith, posted 07-15-2016 9:58 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 343 of 1163 (787515)
07-16-2016 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by Faith
07-16-2016 7:27 AM


Re: Baumgardner's try
Here is a link to a series of Baumbardner articles on AIG, several of which touch on the Flood.

https://answersingenesis.org/bios/john-baumgardner/articles/


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Faith, posted 07-16-2016 7:27 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 393 of 1163 (787623)
07-19-2016 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by jar
07-19-2016 3:15 PM


Re: Why the Fossil Order Doesn't Matter
...dumber than a Chick Tract.

From one of my favorite Chick Tracts:

I'm amazed that even a Creationist could look at that drawing without falling down laughing at whomever created it.

Perhaps Faith was joking...


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by jar, posted 07-19-2016 3:15 PM jar has not yet responded

  
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