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Author Topic:   The Great Creationist Fossil Failure
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7191
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 156 of 1163 (786817)
06-27-2016 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by mike the wiz
06-27-2016 5:39 PM


Hi Mick, why don't you put down your book of logical fallacies and argue some facts?

As you note, there are people here who are not dim, we've also read the book and have progressed from psedo-philosophical argument to real knowledge. Why not follow?

Where's your beef?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by mike the wiz, posted 06-27-2016 5:39 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by mike the wiz, posted 06-29-2016 12:26 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7191
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 176 of 1163 (786923)
06-29-2016 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by mike the wiz
06-29-2016 12:26 PM


Mike writes:

Nice baseless assertion there, seems all you can do is attack, "mike the wiz", eh? Oh sure, you're not dim.

Just pointing out that endless fallacy geekery is getting you nowhere - we all know them. We're interested in facts and evidence - if you started to produce some, you might make some progress.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by mike the wiz, posted 06-29-2016 12:26 PM mike the wiz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by mike the wiz, posted 06-29-2016 1:11 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7191
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 196 of 1163 (786970)
06-30-2016 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by mike the wiz
06-30-2016 7:15 AM


quote:
"Khan...you had it your way once, are you game for a re-match?.....Khan?....I'm LAUGHING at the "superior" intellect!" - Captain Kirk - The Wrath Of Khan.

Would you like me to point out the fallacies in this post or do you want to look it up for yourself?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by mike the wiz, posted 06-30-2016 7:15 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by edge, posted 06-30-2016 6:38 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7191
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 257 of 1163 (787309)
07-09-2016 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Faith
07-09-2016 12:43 PM


Re: Paleogeology resources
Faith writes:

...one would think the geology professionals would want the average person to have access to such basic data.

The average person has total and full access.

School text books are available at every level of interest, there are public museums everywhere, you can walk into a university library and pick up a book, there's loads of 101 stuff on the web. But if you want to debate with professionals, you have to learn like the professionals.

Your problem is that you're trying to argue from ignorance about stuff that has been studied for literally millions of man-years by professionals. You can't take on geology, molecular biology, evolutionary biology, nuclear physics, dendrochronology, palaeontology from your armchair without a single qualification to your name - then complain that you don't understand it but it's all wrong anyway.

I'm lost in wonder at the hubris of it.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Faith, posted 07-09-2016 12:43 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Faith, posted 07-09-2016 1:55 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7191
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 261 of 1163 (787314)
07-09-2016 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Faith
07-09-2016 1:55 PM


Re: Paleogeology resources
Faith writes:

. I know you would like to define for me what I SHOULD be interested in but oddly enough I do have an agenda of my own that you apparently don't grasp.

Your agenda is in plain sight and is extremely easy to grasp.

Your problem is that your agenda isn't science's agenda. Science is not going to bend to your personal requirements. If you want to understand it, you have to make the effort. Complaints that you can't, but that you're right anyway, are rather laughable don't you think?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Faith, posted 07-09-2016 1:55 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7191
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


(2)
Message 271 of 1163 (787351)
07-11-2016 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by Faith
07-10-2016 11:10 PM


Re: Paleogeology resources
Faith writes:

I would like to be able to see how the claim of the fossil order holds up across all the evidence, not particularly for the sake of my own arguments, however. I'm glad to know the information is out there, but I don't think I'll be able to sort through it to answer my questions.

Don't you think those that spend their lives working with fossils would notice if there were fossils out of order in the record? It would be the find of a lifetime, it would be evidence against one of the most established scientific theories in existence. It's Nobel prize stuff.

The fact that it's never happened while millions of fossils have been found is the evidence supporting it. You bet your life you'd never be able to 'sort through it.'


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Faith, posted 07-10-2016 11:10 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by Faith, posted 07-11-2016 3:38 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7191
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 379 of 1163 (787602)
07-19-2016 3:03 AM
Reply to: Message 371 by Faith
07-19-2016 12:55 AM


Re: fossil order is subjective
Faith writes:

You know, I think if the order of, say, the amphibians and reptiles were reversed, or the mammals and birds changed places, or ferns and flowering plants, you'd explain that order as proving the same point,

Sorry Faith, that doesn't work. Organisms develop in particular orders because they have to, but the particular order is not the only relevant point here.

If you imagine that cats, dogs and pigs arrived in the world one million years apart - they didn't, it's just a way of thinking about it - you'd expect them to always be found in the fossil record in that order. We say they are.

But if there was a global flood you'd expect to find all those animals jumbled up together.

That's not what we find so you have to explain how a flood sorted cats, dogs and pigs into seperate layers and never got a single one in the wrong layer. Not one.

If you prefer make the animals marbles. We find three diferent coloured marbles in rocks that we say are of different ages. Red, blue and yellow. We never find a red marble in the same rock as a blue and so on. This is easily explained by the marbles existing at different times and laid down independantly.

You need to explain how a flood organised all the marbles in their individual levels when they would have all been swirling around together.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by Faith, posted 07-19-2016 12:55 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7191
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


(2)
Message 516 of 1163 (787966)
07-24-2016 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 514 by mike the wiz
07-24-2016 10:45 AM


Re: From rock slabs to epeiric seas, there's no room for living things
Mike writes:

faith you might enjoy this rather amusing example of how long ages for rocks, just don't, "fit". The video is only ten minutes long but obviously when you listen to these two guys, and what they say, to be honest the SENSE of what they say is so much greater than any theoretically implausible scenario that it's laughable, as was the old-age explanation. (Just don't go diving, you might end up as a fossil, I know I have seen at least 50 people this summer, at the bottom of the ocean with their heads stuck in the mud.) LOL.

It's a slow, dampish day here so I entertained myself by watching your video, then found the actual science is supposedly based on. It won't surprise others here to find that what is claimed in the video is a collection of lies, misrepresentations and misinterpretations. It's a damn shame that so called religious people have to sin like this, it can't be good for their chances in the after-life. So much because they are deliberately trying to mislead others.

Anywho, here's the detailed, point by point rebuttal by the scientist who described the fossil:

I'm sure that now you know the real facts ratherthan the lies you've been fed by your 'betters' you stop posting this sort of nonsense and do a little bit of your own work to establish the facts

"LOL”
http://plesiosaur.com/creationism/analysis.php?artiID=20

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 514 by mike the wiz, posted 07-24-2016 10:45 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 518 by Faith, posted 07-24-2016 2:11 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7191
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 525 of 1163 (788000)
07-24-2016 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 518 by Faith
07-24-2016 2:11 PM


Re: From rock slabs to epeiric seas, there's no room for living things
Faith writes:

I tried reading through that and somehow managed not to get what you think it's revealing. Partly due to my bad eyes which require me to get through it as fast as possible. Perhaps you could translate?

Oh come on Faith, you very quickly and without further inquiry, accepted a youtube video from a guy that knows nothing about the subject, then plead inability to read when confronted with the facts from the guy that actually described the fossil.

The translation - not that it's necessary - is that the youtube is a bloody great lie. It's very simple to read and understand.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 518 by Faith, posted 07-24-2016 2:11 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7191
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 542 of 1163 (788197)
07-27-2016 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 540 by Faith
07-26-2016 3:04 PM


Re: From rock slabs to epeiric seas, there's no room for living things
quote:
That the geo column is never complete doesn't make the strata not real.

The geological column is always complete.

It's just made up of different rocks in different places on earth. The geological column under my house starts with 6 feet of sediment - dirt - and then several hundred feet of chalk. The column under your house is different.

There's no such thing as THE geological column except as a drawing representing a stylised composite of it.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 540 by Faith, posted 07-26-2016 3:04 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 543 by PaulK, posted 07-27-2016 1:18 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7191
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 545 of 1163 (788202)
07-27-2016 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 543 by PaulK
07-27-2016 1:18 AM


Re: From rock slabs to epeiric seas, there's no room for living things
quote:
Not really. There are periods of non-deposition and erosion. Local geological columns rarely even contain rock from every geological period.

That's what I said - the column is different in different locations, but it's always complete - there is never a gap where rock should be with other rocks floating above it. That's 'cos there's no such thing as THE geological column. It's a stylised teaching aid.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by PaulK, posted 07-27-2016 1:18 AM PaulK has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 546 by NoNukes, posted 07-27-2016 4:15 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7191
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 547 of 1163 (788207)
07-27-2016 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 546 by NoNukes
07-27-2016 4:15 AM


Re: From rock slabs to epeiric seas, there's no room for living things
NoNukes writes:


Actually, you guys are saying slightly different things. What PaulK is saying is that there is only one column that is a kind of composite of what is found world wide. You are clearly saying that there are different columns in different places.

I'm trying to say both!

There's one composite, stylised, column that probably doesn't exist anywhere.

Real geological columns vary depending which area of the world you're in.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 546 by NoNukes, posted 07-27-2016 4:15 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 548 by Pressie, posted 07-27-2016 7:07 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7191
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 576 of 1163 (790671)
09-03-2016 5:31 AM
Reply to: Message 573 by Faith
09-02-2016 2:44 AM


Re: More amazing sorting
Phat writes:

it's an illusion of some sort

It's an 'illusion' that you can touch with your own fingers.

Hundreds of geologists and palaeontologists have researched this stuff, they find what's there and note what isn't. It's what's called a fact. There's no illusion, you can prove it for yourself if you care to do so.

Saying 'I don't know' then calling the facts of what is known to be there and what is missing an illusion isn't even convincing yourself is it?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 573 by Faith, posted 09-02-2016 2:44 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7191
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 596 of 1163 (793749)
11-05-2016 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 593 by mindspawn
11-05-2016 6:54 PM


Re: More amazing sorting
Mindspawn writes:

There have been many ooparts. Out of place artifacts, signs of early humans before the PT boundary.

Ok, lets see them.

Scientists tend to steer clear of studying these because their careers are normally based on the status quo and they would be belittled and their academic status undermined if they give support to radical theories which undermine the status quo.

Bollox. This is an excuse for having nothing.

Human footprints have been found before the PT boundary. A bell was found in Carboniferous coal. The Narmer tablets record dinosaurs with humans in early Egyptian society. as do Sumerian seals. Anyone is able to discover this information in the internet, I wont even bother posting the links here because you guys obviously will not accept those OOPARTS (out of place artifacts) as scientific evidence.

So you just thought it enough to spout crap and then run away? Let's have them, one at a time and we explain why you're wrong so that you won't need to keep making the same silly mistakes.

But my main point is that vast areas of earth have not been studied for early mammals, including humans. The environment where mammals would be would be similar to today, because these rare pre-flood creatures now dominate in a world of angiosperms, So the pre-flood region we should be studying should be one where angiosperms existed before the PT boundary.

Why are you wasting time talking bollox on an internet forum when you could be out there digging up this fantastic missing evidence that science in its blind conformaty has not thought to look for?

So you've still got nothing....


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 593 by mindspawn, posted 11-05-2016 6:54 PM mindspawn has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7191
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 675 of 1163 (793846)
11-06-2016 12:42 PM


Mindspawn, you're all over the place with your 'evidence' and argument and you're on your own against a lot of people who have heard all this before - many, many times.

Why don't you pick your strongest single argument and present it fully, then we can pick it apart in detail?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


Replies to this message:
 Message 677 by mindspawn, posted 11-06-2016 1:02 PM Tangle has responded

  
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