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Author Topic:   The Great Creationist Fossil Failure
Dr Adequate
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Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
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(5)
Message 46 of 1163 (786127)
06-17-2016 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by AdminAsgara
06-16-2016 7:53 PM


Re: TOPIC
Actually, let's talk about fossils and the opening of the Atlantic.

First there was the supercontinent Pangea, and dinosaurs could walk dryshod from South America to Africa. Then after the rifting there were only two ways to get from South America to Africa or vice versa: small animals could raft, or a species could go via the isthmus of Panama (after it had formed), through North America, across the Bering land bridge (when available), through Asia and then into Africa via the Sinai Peninsula. Which is hardly practical, since there's a lot of different ecosystems en route.

So given the timing of the formation and rifting of Pangea, we expect South America and Africa to have similar reptilian fauna from the Permian to the end of the age of dinosaurs (as dated by the usual methods) but different mammalian megafauna.

Guess what. They do. They have the same sorts of theropods: Abelisauridea, Spinosauridae, Carcharodontosauridae; the same sorts of sauropods: Rebbachisauridae, Titanosauria Dicraeosauridae; the same sorts of Cretaceous turtles: Araripemyidae, Pelomedusidae; the same sorts of Cretaceous crocodiles e.g. the Araripesuchidae ...

Sarchosuchus, an African and South American crocodile from the Cretaceous

But on the other hand we are at a loss to find any South American hippos or rhinos or giraffids, living or in the fossil record; similarly we can find no African xenarthrans: no giant sloths or marine sloths or sloths of any sort, no glyptodons, no anteaters, no armadillos, no Pampatheriidae; likewise in Africa we find none of South America's extinct metatherian carnivores, or its "terror birds" (phorusrhacids).

So, this all makes perfect sense in the light of geology. But not in the light of "flood geology". Because of course to a "flood geologist" everything in the fossil record lived at the same time and subject to the same arrangement of continents: the glyptodons lived alongside the abelisaurids, and the terror birds rubbed shoulders with Sarchosuchus ...

... and yet somehow some unknown mechanism arranged it that South America and Africa should have megafauna in common only if those Evil Godless Scientists date them prior to the Cretaceous. The dates, of course, being false, and the dating methods being fallacious, and the Cretaceous Period being imaginary. Which makes it kinda surprising that there's an inexplicable connection between these imaginary dates and the realities of paleobiogeography.

Well, it's a puzzle. Unless you abandon "flood geology" and use real geology instead. Then it's obvious.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith
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Posts: 33872
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 47 of 1163 (786136)
06-17-2016 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by dwise1
06-17-2016 1:43 AM


Re: there was no Atlantic ridge when the rift formed
I don't even know why there would be any question about the sequence of the layers, which lay atop which. You seem to think there's some question. I don't get it. Of course one was laid upon another.

Then you go on:

If we find the fossil of an organism within layer B, can we not assume that that organism must have been present when layer B was deposited? If not, then do explain why not.

What do you mean by "present?" The usual picture is of organisms being carried along with sediments and buried together.

In other words, it does make complete sense that the organisms whose remains are found in the various layers were indeed around when those layers were deposited.

"Around?" You mean overtaken by the sediments that buried them? If that's what you are picturing, and I really don't know for sure, then I think that could have happened in some cases but I think the usual idea is that most of them would have been carried as corpses (though some still living) in the sediment-laden water and deposited together with the sediment.

It does not matter what absolute time period that happened. Layer A was deposited after B which was deposited after C which was deposited after D.

Of course.

Regardless of any absolute dating of the layers, we know full well what the relative dating of those layers are. So if something was buried in layer D, then that had to have happened when D was being deposited. So when we find something deposited in C, we know that it was buried after that something in D was buried. Relative dating!

Of course. Successive depositions.

So then, yes Faith, the presence of a fossil within a given layer does indeed have everything to do with when it existed.

I'm afraid this is a non sequitur in relation to your premises. It's not about a difference in time of existence, only in time of burial, which on the Flood model could have taken as little time as hours, or possibly days or even weeks, but not likely longer. The Flood idea is that all the fossilized creatures were living at the same time, and all died in the Flood, and all were carried in the Flood waters to their burial place and deposited in some sort of order having to do with mechanical principles involving things like size and weight, possibly place of origin, and how water would behave under the circumstances.

Ages do indeed correspond with layers. You may not agree with the ages assigned to a given layer, but you cannot possibly disagree that the age of something buried within a given layer must agree with the age of that given layer.

Your logic is badly flawed somewhere in this picture of things, since you are talking about "ages," which is hardly the word for layers laid down within days or weeks at the longest.

If you disagree, then please explain yourself.

Hope I have done so above.

Claiming adherence to an inflexible dogma is not an acceptable explanation.

I don't think I've ever done that in a discussion of how the Flood might have worked.

By the way, however, there is nothing less dogmatic about the Old Earth interpretations of Geology or the ToE explanations of biology.

Especially considering that that is the explanation for your own untenable position.

??? Creationists do try to make sense of the physical world apart from Biblical foundations.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 33872
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 48 of 1163 (786137)
06-17-2016 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Dr Adequate
06-17-2016 2:48 AM


Re: TOPIC
So given the timing of the formation and rifting of Pangea, we expect South America and Africa to have similar reptilian fauna from the Permian to the end of the age of dinosaurs (as dated by the usual methods) but different mammalian megafauna.

Guess what. They do. They have the same sorts of theropods: Abelisauridea, Spinosauridae, Carcharodontosauridae; the same sorts of sauropods: Rebbachisauridae, Titanosauria Dicraeosauridae; the same sorts of Cretaceous turtles: Araripemyidae, Pelomedusidae; the same sorts of Cretaceous crocodiles e.g. the Araripesuchidae ...

...So, this all makes perfect sense in the light of geology. But not in the light of "flood geology". Because of course to a "flood geologist" everything in the fossil record lived at the same time and subject to the same arrangement of continents: the glyptodons lived alongside the abelisaurids, and the terror birds rubbed shoulders with Sarchosuchus ...

I'm not sure I'm following you, and given your strange mental glitches on former subjects (such as where the Atlantic Ridge would have been in relation to the UK at the moment when the continents broke apart), I have to wonder if there's anything logical to follow...

But insofar as I think I get what you are saying it's the usual straw man version of Flood arguments. The Flood idea is that all the fossilized creatures would have been living at the same TIME, but there is no claim they were all living in the same PLACE, meaning as we understand the timing of the continental break-up, the same place on the supercontinent of Pangaea. Where they were buried is often explained in terms of their location of origin. Creatures living now have their own habitats, live in their own ecological environments, there's no reason that would have been different just before the FLood.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-17-2016 2:48 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 50 by herebedragons, posted 06-17-2016 10:48 AM Faith has responded
 Message 54 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-17-2016 12:27 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 55 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-17-2016 1:03 PM Faith has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15639
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 49 of 1163 (786138)
06-17-2016 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Faith
06-17-2016 10:02 AM


Re: TOPIC
So Faith, are you suggesting that "mechanical sorting" would separate the creatures that lived in both Africa and South America from those who only lived on one of those two continents ? If not, what are you suggesting ?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by NosyNed, posted 06-17-2016 11:34 AM PaulK has responded

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 71 days)
Posts: 1513
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 50 of 1163 (786139)
06-17-2016 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Faith
06-17-2016 10:02 AM


conflicting creationist mechanisms
The Flood idea is that all the fossilized creatures would have been living at the same TIME, but there is no claim they were all living in the same PLACE, meaning as we understand the timing of the continental break-up, the same place on the supercontinent of Pangaea. Where they were buried is often explained in terms of their location of origin.

But doesn't this contradict your previous explanations, such as how sediments are deposited without relation to their origin? Don't you have all the land being stripped off in the very early stages of the flood and all the sediment being carried around in the flood currents being deposited according to some naturalistic mechanism?

As Dr. A pointed out in the OP, this would require that the organisms and the sediments had similar mechanical properties. That is, in order for a batch of sediment and a batch of organisms to be swept around in the flood currents and then deposited in the same location and at the same geological level, they would need to all have the same mechanical properties.

Are there two independent mechanisms that sort sediment and dead creatures that can operate at the same time?

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Faith, posted 06-17-2016 10:02 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8868
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 7.2


(2)
Message 51 of 1163 (786141)
06-17-2016 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by PaulK
06-17-2016 10:20 AM


Sorting
I don't think Faith has brought that up at this time.
She seems to suggest that the split between African animals and South American animals is just because that is where they happened to live.
That this doesn't explain why there was no split before Pangea broke up has escaped her.
Faith doesn't have a list of the things that need explaining so she is never aware that what she says doesn't make sense with the bigger picture.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by PaulK, posted 06-17-2016 10:20 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31766
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 52 of 1163 (786142)
06-17-2016 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by herebedragons
06-17-2016 10:48 AM


Re: conflicting creationist mechanisms
This is simply another great example of why the whole idea that one of the Biblical Flood myths might be true is simply so ridiculous and absurd.

Supposedly the fossils are evidence of all the killing the god character did in the myths.

And supposedly the layers are the result of the flood as well.

And supposedly all the layers with all the things the god character killed were put there by the imaginary flood.

BUT this magic flood also did many magic things.

It was able to magically sort materials in a way no one has ever been able to produce a flood model, mechanism, process, procedure or thingamabob could explain.

BUT WAIT...there's more:

In addition, it also sorted all the critters so that no humans ever ended up in a layer with dinosaurs. It also left some pretty significant fossils of only one type particular critter along with other critters that live in the sea into a stack seen as the White Cliffs of Dover. But unfortunately once again no one has ever been able to produce a flood model, mechanism, process, procedure or thingamabob would do do that.

The idea that there was a Biblical Flood is simply DOA and has been dead for hundreds of years. Today it is nothing but a Zombie.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 15639
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 53 of 1163 (786144)
06-17-2016 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by NosyNed
06-17-2016 11:34 AM


Re: Sorting
quote:

I don't think Faith has brought that up at this time.

In the immediately preceding message:


The Flood idea is that all the fossilized creatures were living at the same time, and all died in the Flood, and all were carried in the Flood waters to their burial place and deposited in some sort of order having to do with mechanical principles involving things like size and weight, possibly place of origin, and how water would behave under the circumstances.

quote:

She seems to suggest that the split between African animals and South American animals is just because that is where they happened to live.

I wasn't challenging that at all. The issue to be addressed is the order in the fossil record. Why are the exclusively South American and the exclusively African large animals in the upper strata while groups common to both continents are found in lower strata ?


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 Message 51 by NosyNed, posted 06-17-2016 11:34 AM NosyNed has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 8.3


(1)
Message 54 of 1163 (786146)
06-17-2016 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Faith
06-17-2016 10:02 AM


Re: TOPIC
I'm not sure I'm following you, and given your strange mental glitches on former subjects (such as where the Atlantic Ridge would have been in relation to the UK at the moment when the continents broke apart), I have to wonder if there's anything logical to follow...

You have been asked to stop talking crap about that.

But insofar as I think I get what you are saying it's the usual straw man version of Flood arguments. The Flood idea is that all the fossilized creatures would have been living at the same TIME, but there is no claim they were all living in the same PLACE, meaning as we understand the timing of the continental break-up, the same place on the supercontinent of Pangaea. Where they were buried is often explained in terms of their location of origin. Creatures living now have their own habitats, live in their own ecological environments, there's no reason that would have been different just before the FLood.

But surely it is your contention --- stop me if I'm wrong --- that if we find fossils of species on the same continent, then they lived on the same continent before the flood? If, in South American, we find fossils of glyptodons, abelisaurids, terror birds, Sarchosuchus, etc, then is that not a sign that they cohabited in (what is now) South America before the Flood?

Or do you suppose that the African and South American fossil mammal faunas were identical before the Flood and then geographically sorted by the flood so that (e.g.) all the glyptodons ended up on the west side and all the giraffids ended up in the east?

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Faith, posted 06-17-2016 10:02 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 55 of 1163 (786149)
06-17-2016 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Faith
06-17-2016 10:02 AM


Re: TOPIC
I'm not sure I'm following you ...

Let's try to make it clearer There is a sharp distinction between the Cenozoic fossil faunas of Africa and South America; there is a marked similarity between the Mesozoic fossil faunas of Africa and South America. I find the explanation obvious: the Atlantic was present in the Cenozoic but absent in the Mesozoic. But to you there was no such thing as Cenozoic and Mesozoic faunas, all the fossils are simply of antediluvian fauna that was all buried at the same time, in the Flood.

So what's your explanation for the distribution of fossils? And why should it have any relationship at all to the false, delusional dating methods invented by Evil Atheist Scientists Who Hate God And Are Blind To The Truth?

and given your strange mental glitches on former subjects (such as where the Atlantic Ridge would have been in relation to the UK at the moment when the continents broke apart ...

I can't resist pointing out that the present continents were, when they were regions of Pangea, joined together at what are now the continental margins, not at their present coastlines. What are now the British Isles were therefore quite a ways away from the rift.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Faith, posted 06-17-2016 10:02 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 58 by Faith, posted 06-18-2016 8:23 PM Dr Adequate has responded
 Message 59 by Faith, posted 06-18-2016 8:25 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
edge
Member (Idle past 45 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 56 of 1163 (786190)
06-18-2016 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Dr Adequate
06-17-2016 1:03 PM


Re: TOPIC
Let's try to make it clearer There is a sharp distinction between the Cenozoic fossil faunas of Africa and South America; there is a marked similarity between the Mesozoic fossil faunas of Africa and South America. I find the explanation obvious: the Atlantic was present in the Cenozoic but absent in the Mesozoic.

This is an interesting topic. Over the last few years, I've been toying with the idea that rifting events have some effect on the rate of evolution. Certainly it would cause isolation as you suggest, allowing evolution to take different directions on separated land masses.

But I'm wondering if there isn't something else. Just look at where humans came into existence on earth: the East African Rift area, an area of incipient continental rifting.

Then there's the evolution of dinosaurs during the Permo-Triassic when North America started to pull away from Africa (though they were probably still connected, just as Africa is still in one piece today).

My contention is that it is not a coincidence that we name the major eras, such as Cenozoic, Mesozoic, Proterozoic, etc., based on the dominant types of life present at the time. This practice goes back to the 1800s as geology was just developing as a science ... no absolute ages available, just raw paleontological data. It was that obvious. Could it have something to do withe the development of geotectonics and its various effects?

So, the effect of geological events or processes on the biology of earth seem undeniable. I wonder what Faith's interpretation of this evidence is.

Probably simple denial.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-17-2016 1:03 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33872
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 57 of 1163 (786202)
06-18-2016 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by herebedragons
06-17-2016 10:48 AM


Re: conflicting creationist mechanisms
But doesn't this contradict your previous explanations, such as how sediments are deposited without relation to their origin? Don't you have all the land being stripped off in the very early stages of the flood and all the sediment being carried around in the flood currents being deposited according to some naturalistic mechanism?

Yes that was the scenario I thought most likely, but Walther's Law got me rethinking the scenario -- obviously a lot of the deposits came from the oceans originally, though I'd expect much from the land as well. We can't know these things exactly, how could we? There are plenty of sources for the sediments from both land and sea. Since the fossils are all encased in a matrix of some kind of sediment or other they seem to have arrived there together. Short of some kind of experiment to see what's possible that's just a good guess.

As Dr. A pointed out in the OP, this would require that the organisms and the sediments had similar mechanical properties. That is, in order for a batch of sediment and a batch of organisms to be swept around in the flood currents and then deposited in the same location and at the same geological level, they would need to all have the same mechanical properties.

Sounds logical I guess, but I doubt it, or at least it would be hard to calculate such a thing. Think of the nautiloid layer in the Redwall Limestone in the Grand Canyon -- millions of nautiloids encased in limestone, which by all the measurements Steve Austin did were all washed there in moving water.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by herebedragons, posted 06-17-2016 10:48 AM herebedragons has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-18-2016 9:06 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33872
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 58 of 1163 (786204)
06-18-2016 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Dr Adequate
06-17-2016 1:03 PM


Re: TOPIC
and given your strange mental glitches on former subjects (such as where the Atlantic Ridge would have been in relation to the UK at the moment when the continents broke apart ...

I can't resist pointing out that the present continents were, when they were regions of Pangea, joined together at what are now the continental margins, not at their present coastlines. What are now the British Isles were therefore quite a ways away from the rift.

That's close enough. That would have jostled things at the coastlines too.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-17-2016 1:03 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-18-2016 9:01 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33872
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 59 of 1163 (786205)
06-18-2016 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Dr Adequate
06-17-2016 1:03 PM


Re: TOPIC
I have looked many times for clear information about where all the various fossils are located, also how many of what kind are exactly where, and found the information unavailable or so scanty and scattered as to be useless to me. If you have a good source kindly pass it on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-17-2016 1:03 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by dwise1, posted 06-18-2016 9:02 PM Faith has responded
 Message 62 by Dr Adequate, posted 06-18-2016 9:03 PM Faith has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 60 of 1163 (786206)
06-18-2016 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Faith
06-18-2016 8:23 PM


Re: TOPIC
That's close enough. That would have jostled things at the coastlines too.

Show your working.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 06-18-2016 8:23 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
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