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Author Topic:   The Great Creationist Fossil Failure
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 661 of 1163 (793829)
11-06-2016 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 658 by Theodoric
11-06-2016 10:17 AM


Re: Stromatolites
I don't proclaim to be an expert. I am not an expert. Therefore I am open to learning. At the same time I like a good point and a logical argument. As such evolution appears to be the weaker theory. Enlighten me if I am wrong. There are more missing fossils and weaker explanations for evolution and abiogenesis than creationism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 658 by Theodoric, posted 11-06-2016 10:17 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 662 by Theodoric, posted 11-06-2016 10:37 AM mindspawn has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 662 of 1163 (793830)
11-06-2016 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 661 by mindspawn
11-06-2016 10:28 AM


Re: Stromatolites
Therefore I am open to learning.
No you are not. Don't lie to us. Don't insult us. You are attempting to proselytize, nothing more nothing less. All roads lead to the bible for you. That is not being open to learning.
At the same time I like a good point and a logical argument.
Another lie. You think only you make good points. You wouldn't know a logical argument if it bit you on the ass. Your claim of the legitimacy of OOPARTS shows clearly an inability to possess critical thinking skills. You accept these hook, line and sinker without actually examining and processing the data and evidence.
Present them. Make a good point and logical argument for them.
I am not an expert.
You should listen to the experts. They are the ones you are trying to shovel your bs to.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 661 by mindspawn, posted 11-06-2016 10:28 AM mindspawn has not replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 663 of 1163 (793831)
11-06-2016 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 660 by Theodoric
11-06-2016 10:26 AM


Re: Narmer Tablets
I will consider all scientific evidence, and always try to adjust my view to fit the evidence. I do try and be open minded to the evidence. Yes I do take the bible as evidence as well, something that you may find strange, but using the bible I may just be able to interpret the science in some cases.
ie scientists debate about whether the PT boundary had a major transgression or a major regression. I am confident in the flood story and so I can tell you the transgression was first. Followed by the regression.
Scientists may wonder at the rapid Cambrian Explosion and look for earlier fossil transitions. I say it points to creation, and so you are unlikely to find earlier fossil transitions.
Scientists may wonder why a wide variety of the earliest mammals would congregate in Turkey and then spread. I have the advantage of the bible, it says the ark settled in Turkey, which explains the congregation of early mammals.
Haplogroup studies point to a spread of humans from the Middle East. Some scientists still support the "out of Africa hypothesis". The bible supports the haplogroup studies rather than the "out of Africa" interpretation of them. The bible implies a spreading from the ark, and describes a spreading from the tower of Babel. Once again I am at an advantage through taking the bible literally.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 660 by Theodoric, posted 11-06-2016 10:26 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 667 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-06-2016 10:58 AM mindspawn has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 664 of 1163 (793833)
11-06-2016 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 634 by mindspawn
11-06-2016 5:50 AM


Re: More amazing sorting
Yes I believe that most dinosaurs did rapidly adapt from the archosaur.
In a few thousand years? You really think that evolution is that powerful?
And again I have to ask why no-one noticed. The Ancient Egyptians apparently didn't notice that they were sharing Egypt with Aegyptosaurus, Bahariasaurus, Carcharodontosaurus, Deltadromeus and Spinosaurus. You'd think they'd have noticed something like this, but no ...
The ancient cultures of Mesopotamia didn't notice all the ichthyosaurs that were swimming about, or indeed the fact that they were underwater.
The ancient Chinese managed to overlook the fact that they were hanging out with (for example) Qianzhousaurus sinensis, a bipedal predator which was 29 feet long and weighed 1800 pounds. You'd think the way it kept eating them would be a clue, but no ...
I am not making piecemeal excuses.
Yes you are: your excuse for the lobsters has nothing in common with your excuse for the humans which has nothing in common with your excuse for the dinosaurs.
There is actually evidence to support that trilobites and early bacteria thrived in warm anoxic sulfuric environments. This is not very conducive to other life.
But remember, we also have (for example) Permian coral and Permian fish, neither of which thrive in anoxic sulfuric environments. So why don't we find lobsters alongside them?
To expect every modern environment to be prevalent enough in the Cambrian to show fossils is not logical.
Well, according to you there must have been enough modern environments to sustain every modern group, and indeed all the Mesozoic groups too. And yet in hundreds of years of fossil hunting no-one's found one such environment? I agree it would be unreasonable to ask for every one of them, but you can't find any of them, not one Paleozoic place where mammals lived, or birds, or crocodiles, or flowering plants, or lobsters, or scleractinian coral, or teleost fish ...
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 634 by mindspawn, posted 11-06-2016 5:50 AM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 669 by mindspawn, posted 11-06-2016 11:20 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 665 of 1163 (793834)
11-06-2016 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 657 by jar
11-06-2016 10:14 AM


Re: More amazing sorting
The bible actually describes 14 of every kind. Most people miss that. There are only two of the unclean ones, the rest have 14.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 657 by jar, posted 11-06-2016 10:14 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 680 by jar, posted 11-06-2016 1:12 PM mindspawn has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(3)
Message 666 of 1163 (793835)
11-06-2016 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 659 by mindspawn
11-06-2016 10:25 AM


Re: Pre-flood mammals
Yet abiogenesis is a theoretical impossibility because of the need for multiple opposing environments in the same spot at the same time to create life.
If you believe you can prove this, start another thread. The world's scientists will I am sure be awestruck by your profound insights into the science of biochemistry, which you have never studied, and the history of the early Earth, of which you know almost nothing.
And yet you attempt to discredit creationism for some missing fossils??
Well, given that we have lots and lots of intermediate forms, and you have no, zilch, zip, bupkis, zero of these Paleozoic mammals, or birds, or flowering plants, etc, that we ought to have if you were right, yeah, the advantage is with us. Y'see, lots is more than nothing at all.
Not only that..... at least creationism has a valid theory of origin.
"A wizard did it" is not a theory and does not appear to be valid.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 659 by mindspawn, posted 11-06-2016 10:25 AM mindspawn has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(3)
Message 667 of 1163 (793836)
11-06-2016 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 663 by mindspawn
11-06-2016 10:41 AM


Re: Narmer Tablets
Scientists may wonder why a wide variety of the earliest mammals would congregate in Turkey and then spread.
Scientists would say that you made that up. The mammals you refer to are Eocene, while the earliest mammals are late Jurassic; and the fact that the scientists say that "many of the fossil species are completely unlike any other fossil mammals we’ve ever seen" shows that they did not in fact spread, or at least that we have as yet no evidence whatsoever that they did, because otherwise these forms would have been seen elsewhere. 'Cos of what "spread" means.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 663 by mindspawn, posted 11-06-2016 10:41 AM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 671 by mindspawn, posted 11-06-2016 12:05 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 668 of 1163 (793837)
11-06-2016 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 655 by mindspawn
11-06-2016 10:11 AM


Re: Haplogroups
Here is another map, this one mtDNA:
This clearly shows L0 and L1 in Africa, with everything else being descended from those two haplogroups.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 655 by mindspawn, posted 11-06-2016 10:11 AM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 670 by mindspawn, posted 11-06-2016 11:52 AM Coyote has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 669 of 1163 (793838)
11-06-2016 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 664 by Dr Adequate
11-06-2016 10:43 AM


Egypt and Dinosaurs
The overlap between humans and dinosaurs was just for a short early period of Middle Eastern history. Before that humans were in small numbers, not enough to reflect in archaeology or fossils. A litle later, when humans started cities and grew in numbes we signs of this overlap, other than the Sumerian seals, the Egyptian Narmer Tablets , we also have a Cynogathus represented in the temple of Gobleki Tepe.
Just as early Egypt reached its peak, it appears the Old Kingdom was wiped out. Weather patterns changed. Sumeria went through a disaster as did the Indus civilisation. When these civilisations recovered they were never as strong as the original ones. The overlap between humans and dinosaurs as reflected in artifacts was only during those early advanced civilisations, just for a short period.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 664 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-06-2016 10:43 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 673 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-06-2016 12:19 PM mindspawn has not replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 670 of 1163 (793841)
11-06-2016 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 668 by Coyote
11-06-2016 11:13 AM


Re: Haplogroups
Look I do understand why they assume they come from Africa because certain African groups are without certain ancient mutations that every other group has.
However this could also mean these groups migrated out the Middle East earlier than the rest. ie the assumption of location during earlier times could be the wrong assumption, especially when the rest of the groups expanded out from the Middle East.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 668 by Coyote, posted 11-06-2016 11:13 AM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 672 by Coyote, posted 11-06-2016 12:17 PM mindspawn has replied

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 2660 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 671 of 1163 (793842)
11-06-2016 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 667 by Dr Adequate
11-06-2016 10:58 AM


Ark mammals
Research into mammal evolution focuses on pivotal Eocene interval in Turkey | The University of Kansas
You are correct, the scientists are more concerned why these unique fossils gathered there , than reference to their spreading. My bad for emphasizing subsequent spreading , I'm interpreting the evidence through my own paradigm which isn't the logical thing to do. But even so, its easy to explain the mystery expressed in the link via the ark story. They gathered there through the ark, then later some surviving species subsequently spread out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 667 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-06-2016 10:58 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 674 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-06-2016 12:31 PM mindspawn has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 672 of 1163 (793843)
11-06-2016 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 670 by mindspawn
11-06-2016 11:52 AM


Re: Haplogroups
Look I do understand why they assume they come from Africa because certain African groups are without certain ancient mutations that every other group has.
That's pretty definitive evidence for modern humans originating in Africa.
However this could also mean these groups migrated out the Middle East earlier than the rest. ie the assumption of location during earlier times could be the wrong assumption, especially when the rest of the groups expanded out from the Middle East.
And they could have caught a local Metro bus for the journey. That's just about as likely as your scenario.
You are ignoring a lot of evidence and making up increasingly unlikely "what ifs" to support your a priori religious beliefs. That's not doing science.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 670 by mindspawn, posted 11-06-2016 11:52 AM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 676 by mindspawn, posted 11-06-2016 12:59 PM Coyote has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 673 of 1163 (793844)
11-06-2016 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 669 by mindspawn
11-06-2016 11:20 AM


Re: Egypt and Dinosaurs
The overlap between humans and dinosaurs was just for a short early period of Middle Eastern history.
So how much time are you allowing for the evolution of the dinosaurs from more basal archosaurs?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 669 by mindspawn, posted 11-06-2016 11:20 AM mindspawn has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 674 of 1163 (793845)
11-06-2016 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 671 by mindspawn
11-06-2016 12:05 PM


Re: Ark mammals
You are correct, the scientists are more concerned why these unique fossils gathered there , than reference to their spreading. My bad for emphasizing subsequent spreading , I'm interpreting the evidence through my own paradigm which isn't the logical thing to do. But even so, its easy to explain the mystery expressed in the link via the ark story. They gathered there through the ark, then later some surviving species subsequently spread out.
How does the Ark story explain all the other unique post-Paleozoic faunas?
For example, the unique Triassic fauna of the Chinle Formation in New Mexico. The unique Cretaceous fauna at Wanderfeld IV in South Africa? The present unique fauna of Australia?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 671 by mindspawn, posted 11-06-2016 12:05 PM mindspawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 678 by mindspawn, posted 11-06-2016 1:07 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 675 of 1163 (793846)
11-06-2016 12:42 PM


Mindspawn, you're all over the place with your 'evidence' and argument and you're on your own against a lot of people who have heard all this before - many, many times.
Why don't you pick your strongest single argument and present it fully, then we can pick it apart in detail?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

Replies to this message:
 Message 677 by mindspawn, posted 11-06-2016 1:02 PM Tangle has replied

  
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